AR and AM rules discussion.

[Mike]

Perhaps discussing rules mid season is better than waiting till November.

I’m not a rules expert; perhaps someone can offer background/discussion regarding the following questions.

Here are couple issues I’d like to explore.

Engine replacement points affect many classes.

1. Should the stock engine replacement points be reviewed.
Perhaps they were in compliance in the 80s when a 3.2 swap was big power.
TT the examples you provided in the your quote below are cause for concern.

1.a. Tied to the engine replacement criteria is the engine swap baseline determined by the factory supplied hp on the Porsche in question.
Why exactly do the rules have a bias in favor of doing engine swaps to a factory equipped higher hp Porsches?

AR issue.
2. Is the R1 range is too broad compared to other classes?
The R1 range is 49 points, double the points gap of the closest (I) class.
Can the R2 class be made meaningful to include a factory race car and competitive homebuilt?
Current class point spreads.
STOCK CLASSES (0-8 Points)
PREPARED CLASSES (9-20 Points)
IMPROVED CLASSES (21-40 Points)
MODIFIED CLASSES (41-54 Points)
R CLASSES:
R-1 (55-94 Points)
R-2 (Over 94 Points)

Previous discussion………..

Could I put a water cooled twin turbo 996 550hp engine in my car and still be AR1?
Seems the AR2 point cutoff is so high that it is meaningless.

I think you're right. 94 points is A LOT! You could turbo your motor and only add 15 points, or better yet, drop in a 500HP GT-2 motor and you would have even less points and still be AR1, because the HP increase rule (if you use a stock engine for the swap) maxes out at 100HP delta (24 pts.) Since your '69 911T had only 110 HP originally, any motor you swapped in with more than 210 HP would get the SAME point penalty. A Euro 3.2 would get the same 24 points as a GT2 motor. This is a shortcoming in our rules that should be changed, as with the newer, more powerful engines, a 250HP increase or more is possible, and should carry a larger penalty than 24 points. What about a 650HP Carrera GT engine in a 914 tube frame? Not that anyone has deep enough pockets to do it, but it is probably possible to build such a car and stay in AR1. I just did a hypothetical point count on such a car (914 tube frame chassis with Carrera GT engine, huge slicks, big brakes, trick gears, limited slip, every suspension and aero mod possible) and came up with 72 points! You could take 550 lbs out of the car (not that it would be possible to get that far under stock weight!) and still be in AR1. I can't imagine what an AR2 car would look like. Has anyone built one yet?

The other thing about AR2 that bugs me is that we still exclude the factory race cars from this (or any other class, except X.) If you built a 94+ point car, it could easily be as fast as a factory RSR, 934, 935 or Cup car, so why not let these exotics run in AR2 instead of being banned to X class?

TT

I know the AM guys have some issues so I included them.
The 3.6 conversions have become common; seemingly too big for AM and too small for AR1.

[John Straub]

I would like to see a AM2 class for the 3.6 cars. What do you think TT?

[ttweed]

I would like to see a AM2 class for the 3.6 cars. What do you think TT?

I like that idea! We should also banish anyone named Kinninger to AR class automatically, no matter what they are driving! How do we write this rule up? The wording will be tricky....

TT

[John Straub]

I've never run against Eric. I knew him when he was not much more than a baby, maybe back then I should have handicapped him by poking him in the eye when his mom and dad were not looking. Then we would not have to worry about him and his 3.6. Anyway, I'm sure he'll smoke me when I do run against him. So, out with the 3.6s!

[Curt]

I know that we want to have zero connection with what POC does because we want to reinvent a rounder wheel, but in POC, if you pop a 3.6 in an earlier car, that earlier car better weigh 3000 lbs, or you better start adding up lots of points for the weight that you are under.

[pdy]

The current PCA rules do take weight into account,
just as Curt suggests. You can either classify your
car as an earlier (lighter) Porsche with lotsa points
for a big engine, or you can say it's a later car
with that large displacement standard, but you pay
all the points for the equivalent of weight removal.

Paul.

[Mike]

. You can either classify your
car as an earlier (lighter) Porsche with lotsa points
for a big engine,
Paul.

Hi Paul.
For example with my 69 911T at 110hp stock.
I could raise it any amount over 210hp take the over 100hp increase for 24 stock engine points.
A 270hp 3.6 would put that 160hp over stock.
I find it curious that in the rules the first increment of 0 to 25 hp over stock gets a 8 points.
Yet on my example the extra 60hp over the 100hp/24pt increase on my car would be free.
Or with a turbo replacement engine of say 400hp the last 180hp would be free.
Seems like a lot of free hp when the rules indicate increased points for every 25hp improvement up to only 100hp.
Imho the rules reward the largest engine swap possible instead of maintaining a leval playing field by ensuring that cars of equal points could be competitve.

[Curt]

In years of posing this question, I don't think I've ever received an answer that makes sense.

Why do the rules differentiate between models of 911's, specifically the early cars? If I throw a stock 3.2 into a 73T (140 hp stock)or into a 73S (190 hp stock) there is a huge difference in the amount of points each car takes, even though they are identical cars after the engine swap

[Red Rooster]

Great question Curt, I have seen you post it before and have never seen any answer at all as to the logic behind it.

As I understand it, "back in the day" at the factory ALL 911's (T,E & S) chassis/body assy's were constructed on the same production line, as they were during this phase, all identical.

Upon completion of the basic chassis/body assy they reached a point in production where the predetermined quantities of each model (T,E & S) then began to receive the different powerplants and trim oprions for each model.

But prior to the installation of the engine they are all the same car weighing the same (SWB:66-68, LWB:69-73)

Can somebody please correct me if I am wrong?

Thanks!!

[Mike]

Why do the rules differentiate between models of 911's, specifically the early cars? If I throw a stock 3.2 into a 73T (140 hp stock)or into a 73S (190 hp stock) there is a huge difference in the amount of points each car takes, even though they are identical cars after the engine swap

In Curts case if both had a 220hp 3.2 the S would take only 8 engine points but the T would have to take 16 points.

What if the cars were made identical by just putting an S engine into the T.
Two cars with the same engine yet the S powered T would get a 12 point penalty.

Have the rules been skewed to respect Porsche's model classification so that S models remain superior?

[Red Rooster]

I would find it hard to beleive that the rules were set up to keep the "S" as the king ...as that wouldn't matter out on the track, as opposed to being judged in a Concours.

For the life of me I cannot even pretend to understand the concept of why one pre-'74 early 911 chassis is taking more points for the same engine swap than another pre-'74 early 911 just because of some different badging on the rear deck lid...??????

[Jad]

I would find it hard to beleive that the rules were set up to keep the "S" as the king ...as that wouldn't matter out on the track, as opposed to being judged in a Concours.

For the life of me I cannot even pretend to understand the concept of why one pre-'74 early 911 chassis is taking more points for the same engine swap than another pre-'74 early 911 just because of some different badging on the rear deck lid...??????

Because the rules cover a wide range of cars, not just the cute little world you 911 drivers live in.... Can you imagine the tech volume required to cover every possible change to every car Porsche ever made??? There are always good choices and bad choices within a class, you decide which car you want within the class and let everyone else complain you have the unfair advantage

[gulf911]

Because the rules cover a wide range of cars, not just the cute little world you 911 drivers live in.... Can you imagine the tech volume required to cover every possible change to every car Porsche ever made??? There are always good choices and bad choices within a class, you decide which car you want within the class and let everyone else complain you have the unfair advantage

Your argument doesn't make sense Jad, what they are suggesting makes it simpler not more difficult. 911 69-73 chassis with an engine swap should not be penelized for starting as an T. The only issue may be weight...the 69 was the lightest model year I beleive. Its not an easy thing to do, and you can't keep everybody happy.

[Curt]

Very true Jad, but this point that we keep making as early car drivers seems kind of unique. In the era our cars were made, three cars, T, E or S, could be ordered that were indentical in every single feature except for the engine. Suspension, brakes, transmissions, displacement, LSD's, all potentially identical with the only difference being the internal components of the engine, specifically just cams and higher compression pistons.

I know there was a similar thing in the 74-77 cars, but the SC's, Carrera's, 964's, 993's etc weren't like this. Sure you could choose a turbo motor instead of NA, but then you got different bodywork, different size wheels and tires, different brakes and probably suspension too. Those cars are hugely different and are not intermingled on the same production line.

The only way to tell our cars apart once the engine is out is to check the number on the VIN tag. Ferry Porsche couldn't tell the difference between these cars once the engines are out, but our rules want to make them seem vastly different cars.

[ajackson]

Could update/backdate rules cover this? As long as your car meets all the specs for another car, you would be able to classify it as whatever you want. If you have a 77 911S, you could classify it as an SC as long as it has SC brakes, suspension, engine, etc. You could then choose your own starting points and add from there for modified whatever (including weight).

If I have a 69 with upgraded everything, I could say the base was whatever and add points from there. You could say it was a 70S and add on for everything or a 82 SC and add from there. This assumes that you have to take into consideration weight. Your base weight would be teh 82 SC weight, base hp is the 82 sc hp, etc etc.

All the 3.2 liter cars would quickly discover what was the cheapest base car. All the 3.6 liter cars would find their base. Does make sense to penalize someone for modifying a 70E when they should have modified a 75 to end up with exactly the same car.

The 911's are unique in regards to having basically the same chasis for so long that once you swap enough parts and add flares, the tub could have been basically anything.