AR and AM rules discussion.

[Red Rooster]

I think the most simple and logical solution would be to have a single pre-74 911 catagory for any pre 74 911 to fall into if the stock engine was replaced with a larger engine and then the appropriate add'l points can be added based on the hp of that engine.

I see it like this, If you had 15 stock fresh 3.2L motors with stock 915 trans, and installed them each in different models of early 911's (T, E & S) for the years 69->73 and all had typically available and competitively matched suspension setups, and everything else on the car is stock, which one now has the advantage over the others?

I think the '69 911T with a 3.2L would have no more or less advantage than the '73E or '72S with the same 3.2L. Across the board....a complete stalemate.

[John Straub]

So, if you take a 2.0L car put a 3.2 or 3.6 in it and take the same points, how can that be? Both are over the 40%. It seems to me, a 3.6 needs more points. Am I missing sometime?

[Mike]

So, if you take a 2.0L car put a 3.2 or 3.6 in it and take the same points, how can that be? Both are over the 40%. It seems to me, a 3.6 needs more points. Am I missing sometime?

I'm with you John.
I hope Steve G, TT or other rule experts chime in and let us know if we are either on line, off line or off track.

It appears the engine replacement rules would be more accurate for NA engines only up till 1989.

Currently there is a balance between taking points for an engine replacement or taking points for itemized engine upgrades.
Any changes to the engine replacement point structure would have to be with respect to the itemized points structure too.

Could it be as simple as adding a couple more increments above the current 100hp or more ceiling?
Something like....just rough numbers...
100hp to 150 30pts
150hp to 200 34pts

Okay would a rules wizard please check in and tell us if there is room for improvement and if so what might work best?

[Steve Grosekemper]

So, if you take a 2.0L car put a 3.2 or 3.6 in it and take the same points, how can that be? Both are over the 40%. It seems to me, a 3.6 needs more points. Am I missing sometime?

I'm with you John.
I hope Steve G, TT or other rule experts chime in and let us know if we are either on line, off line or off track.

It appears the engine replacement rules would be more accurate for NA engines only up till 1989.

Currently there is a balance between taking points for an engine replacement or taking points for itemized engine upgrades.
Any changes to the engine replacement point structure would have to be with respect to the itemized points structure too.

Could it be as simple as adding a couple more increments above the current 100hp or more ceiling?
Something like....just rough numbers...
100hp to 150 30pts
150hp to 200 34pts

Okay would a rules wizard please check in and tell us if there is room for improvement and if so what might work best?

The 100+ HP scale is easy to do but making all early 911's one class is not. It is more complex than it seems and we have been working on this for years, but have not come up with a solution that works for all.

After I deal with my current rules projects and BW aftermath I will take a look at his again, just no time right now.

But just keep in mind when changing a rule it has to work for that FSS car as much as the AM car and at every increase in points made to the car. The drivers make changes faster than the rules can keep up, that is just the name of the game and we do our best.

The forum is a great place to throw ideas out maybe one out of the 50 will be the one...

[ttweed]

Okay would a rules wizard please check in and tell us if there is room for improvement and if so what might work best?

I am no rules wizard, but I have studied ours closely as a tech worker. If we have a rules wizard in the club at the moment, it is Steve G., the current Rules Chair, but he is too busy to chime in here at length, I'm sure, especially since one of my cars is keeping him busy at the moment.

I am positive that any rule set can be improved, and we have a well-defined process for doing that (see the rules page on the club site.} We can rail all we want against perceived injustice here in the forum, but unless we submit well-defined and well-justified changes thru the formal process, nothing will happen. I have submitted proposals the last two years to address the very problems that are being discussed. Some of them have been accepted and some have not. The trouble is that improvements/refinements/closing loopholes, etc., usually result in more complex and lengthy definitions/specifications, which I think that Zone officials have avoided somewhat in the name of simplicity. As Jad mentioned, there is a wide array of Porsche models to fit into a limited number of classes, and some unfairness is inevitable. We "Modified early 911" guys are in the minority, though we may be a very vocal and competitive minority. It is the Zone 8 Rules Chair and Region Presidents that need to hear about our views if we expect to see any changes enacted.

This year, I am planning on submitting a few changes myself once again, and one of them will be an "expansion" of the engine swap "HP delta" chart similar to what Mike is suggesting, except that I was going to propose increases in points at 25HP intervals (proportional to the existing rule) that extend far enough to cover the range of all possible swaps with existing modern factory engines. This will be accompanied by a change to the "increased displacement" specification, which currently maxes out at 40%, to allow for the fact that someone who swaps a 3.8 into a 2.0-liter car has almost doubled the displacement.

The other issues raised in this thread include the differences between assessments to T vs. E & S models. I have submitted a change in the past to even this out, which consisted of proposing that all HP deltas be calculated from the lowest HP car in the model line, according to the update/backdate specification, i.e., if you update an S or E car, you get the same points as updating a T model. For some reason, this proposal was not accepted. To some extent, the rules have always diferentiated the early S and E cars from the T and Normal 911 models by putting them in different classes. However, once the cars are extensively modified, they ALL end up in AM together! Thus it is unfair to allow another 8 points of improvements to an S over a T car, not to mention the poor 914s!

Our update/backdate rule only allows movement within the year/model range, where a T can be updated to the S model in the same range, it does not specifically say that a T can be "hypothetically" updated to an S before you swap in another motor. Perhaps this would be a way to level that discrepancy, by allowing the T to be "considered" as an S before the swap, and allowing it the brakes, swaybars and HP level of the S for free after the swap? I'm not sure what the language of such a rule would look like, so I proposed this instead:

When calculating the HP difference between the original car and the new stock engine replacement, the beginning value will be that of the lowest HP model in the original car's update/backdate model range as shown in Section V (Model Ranges) of these rules. This value shall be subtracted from the published factory HP figures for the transplanted stock engine to obtain the HP increase.

Rationale:
Section L addresses the case of engine transplants, which are becoming highly popular with early 911 cars. Points are assigned according to difference in HP between the stock engine and the later model engine. The problem with this stems from how this difference is calculated. The rule is entirely vague in this regard, but I have been told that the proper method is to use the published factory data for the difference in the two engine types, beginning with the correct engine for the VIN #, and subtracting that from the published data for the transplanted stock engine. However, this unfairly penalizes a person who updates a "T" model vs. one who updates an "S".

Consider the case of a 3.2 liter Carrera transplant into a pair of early 911s, which is a fairly common modification in our club. If one of the cars is a 1973 911S, with 190 HP, and one is a 1973 911T with 140 HP, there is a 50 HP difference in their HP deltas with the 217HP Carrera motor, yet they end up as essentially the same cars afterwards, especially if the T was delivered with all the "S" options, just lacking the stronger motor. The 3.2 "S" car is assessed 12 points (27 HP increase, while the 3.2 "T" car is assessed 20 points (77 HP increase). Although the cars now have equal speed potential, the "S" car can still make 8 points more in
improvements.

This rule must be modified in such a way as to link it to the Update/Backdate rule of Section V, such that the HP difference is calculated between the new engine and the lowest HP engine within the appropriate Update/Backdate series/model line. Thus all models on that line will receive the same points for the same transplant.

There are still some inequities that exist between building a "custom" engine rather than doing a stock engine swap which are even more difficult to address, but some of the changes I have proposed in the past to level this difference have been accepted.

That's enough to chew on for awhile, though.

TT

[lowyder993s]

to allow for the fact that someone who swaps a 3.8 into a 2.0-liter car has almost doubled the displacement.


That's enough to chew on for awhile, though.

TT

BASTIGE!!!!!!

Might as well just rip out my heart

[ttweed]

The forum is a great place to throw ideas out maybe one out of the 50 will be the one...

I see that while I was composing my lengthy diatribe, Steve did respond briefly (hey-get back to work on MY CAR, you slacker!) I completely agree with his point above, though, as if we can discuss these changes informally before submitting them, perhaps we can refine them to where they will be acceptable to everyone instead of having them rejected due to some small inconsistency or oversight.

I think we need a discussion on the weight rule as well, as it has had a great deal of controversy in the last few years and is still too vague and imprecise, IMHO.

TT

[ttweed]

Might as well just rip out my heart

No worries, Jim, your new hotrod is so AR1 that you are not a concern to the AM crowd. I think you are a long way from AR2 as well, but I haven't seen the new beast yet. Looks like you were closing the gap to Dawson at BW, though. Only 2 seconds to go!

Why is Jae's car listed as AR2 in the BW results? Does he really have 94+ points? I don't see how it could be that high, unless he's changed it more than I know. Maybe he just didn't want to compete against his AR1 customers?

TT

[lowyder993s]

Only 2 seconds to go!

TT

We'll see this weekend @ WSIR

[lowyder993s]

Why is Jae's car listed as AR2 in the BW results? Does he really have 94+ points?

TT

...Nah...he didn't want to ruin the AR1 battle this late in the season. The man's a saint.

[ttweed]

...Nah...he didn't want to ruin the AR1 battle this late in the season. The man's a saint.

That's what I thought, and I was even editing my post to reflect that at the same time you posted, Jim.

TT

[ajackson]

No one has commented much on it, what is wrong with "hypothetical" updating/backdating? As long as all components of the car are taken into consideration, it seems to solve all the problems rather simply.

It also lets people (if they choose) who have upgrades parts on an older car to newer stock parts to play in a relatively stock class rather than hugely modified (assuming everything including weight is taken into consideration).

[gulf911]

"Consider the case of a 3.2 liter Carrera transplant into a pair of early 911s, which is a fairly common modification in our club. If one of the cars is a 1973 911S, with 190 HP, and one is a 1973 911T with 140 HP, there is a 50 HP difference in their HP deltas with the 217HP Carrera motor, yet they end up as essentially the same cars afterwards, especially if the T was delivered with all the "S" options, just lacking the stronger motor. The 3.2 "S" car is assessed 12 points (27 HP increase, while the 3.2 "T" car is assessed 20 points (77 HP increase). Although the cars now have equal speed potential, the "S" car can still make 8 points more in
improvements. "

And there you have it folks, Thanks Tom for that eloquent enlightenment!

Your idea is excellent, all points assessed with early 911 engine swap start with the same T HP rating, keeping the delta the same.

And one very important issue, WHAT IS STEVE DOING TO YOUR AM CAR???

[Curt]

Tom's rule proposal makes perfect sense for these cars. This doesn't even apply to my car or help me in any way.

[ttweed]

And one very important issue, WHAT IS STEVE DOING TO YOUR AM CAR???

He's converting it to midengine and dropping a Carrera GT engine in it as we speak! No, I only wish that were true. He's actually working on my '68 Normal which I am modifying into a 911R look for autocrossing in FP class (or maybe GP, just to give Dan C. some apoplexy.)



TT