Current Car Classifications vs Performance- Fact or Fiction

[mrondeau]

Bill,

While I appreciate your effort and ingenuity at thinking out of the box, I find that your math and reasoning are flawed. This is most likely because you haven't been around as long as some and haven't talked to many of the historic drivers in the club who have been through this many times.

It should be noted that since the current system has been implemented, there have been very few proposals and changes compared to the previous system which leads me to believe that most drivers see this as somewhat equitable or are waiting for more hard data to compare and suggest changes. I personally think that this system, while it may be slightly flawed, is fair overall and allows drivers to find the optimum sweet spot for their car. Whether or not they can succeed in that particular class is another story. Every club has some very fast drivers that skew the results for everyone else. Those statistics, like those of drivers who are way off pace for a class, should probably be thrown out when analyzing data to determine how "fair" a system is.

A driver handicap system seems like a bad idea. I am a golfer and, at my best, had an index of 11.2. Golfing handicaps/indexes work because the course and equipment are all the same. The only variable is the golfer. Your system would introduce differing equipment (the cars) with differing levels of setup from event to event, and expect to get the same kind of results and a consistent and fair handicap. Your system would fail to take into account whether or not a driver is using the same vehicle at each event or whether or not a driver would have a specific index for each car. In golf, a golfer with an artificially high index is called a "sandbagger". Your system would be even easier for a driver to manipulate then a golf handicap allowing the driver to end up in a lower class until such time as the driver wanted to move up.

This proposed system reminds me of soccer "tournaments" where everyone wins and gets a trophy and true competition is discouraged so that nobody has their feelings hurt. Not everyone is a good driver. Anyone two drivers can have cars that can be classed together with similar performance levels. Just because a car is classed with a similar performance level to another car doesn't mean that it's optimized for that class or against the other car. An optimized car will have a proper alignment and corner balance, new tires, just enough weight and fuel and no points to spare. A truly optimized car will have all of that, a top notch driver and the best use of available points with no points to spare. Since I don't believe that the proposed system has any merit for consideration, I will move on.

The basis for classifying in this new system has been laid out before and it is not simply a hp/weight ratio formula. Wheel size, age of the vehicle and whether or not it's a mid-engine all weigh into the current system. Your math in table 2 is faulty as you feel that only the "age" points for the year of the car are considered. The stock wheel size also determines base points and helps to level the increased technology of the newer cars. The modification point determinations are, and always have been, a moving target. There is a long history of point values to modifications and the architects of our current system took those into account as well. If points are deemed unfair for a particular change, they are adjusted for the following year through our rules proposals and comments procedure on the Zone 8 website. Feel free to propose changes for the membership to discuss and for the Zone Presidents to vote on.

0-60 times are great for manufacturers and advertisers. They have little relevance in our time trials and autocrosses. As any good driver will tell you, the speed is in the corners. Handling outweighs HP at most tracks with the exception being AAA in Fontana. Finding time in the corners by driving a better line, using better braking points and maximizing speed in the corners comes with experience and seat time.

While you try to determine how points equate to each other, you fail to recognize that this is a menu. Determine where you want to be classed and the points you have to get there. Then you get to determine how to use them. Some people will do an exhaust change, upgrade brakes, lighten the car, add sway bars, change tires, etc. The points don’t have to equate to each other, they just have to try to give an equitable increase in performance that the driver feels is worth the additional points. We change tire points often because of technology that keeps making tires better. There are current 200 treadwear tires that stick almost as well as some 100 treadwear tires. This is the reason that someone can drive at almost the same pace on street tires as they do on DOT R tires. Especially an experienced driver who knows the cars limits and is comfortable on the edge. As I said before, if points seem to be excessive or not severe enough, propose a rule change for that modification.

I truly believe that you are looking at this incorrectly and that could be a reason for your current viewpoint that this is unfair. I believe that past "Real World Data" in regards to point modifications is much more valuable than your analysis of the 2012-2014 TT results. The Zone and some of the members in this region in particular have quite a bit of experience determining the value of modifications based on modifications within classes in the previous system. There are too many variables in drivers pertaining to experience level at that track, recent modifications, tire compounds, tire age, etc. for your analysis to be valid. While I'm impressed with the time and analysis effort on your part, I believe that you are barking up the wrong tree.

I spent the first couple of years of my AX and TT career chasing down Jackie Corwin. As I developed my car, I also developed my driving until I was able to win and I haven't looked back since. I spent my first year with the 944S making NO MODIFICATIONS so that I could determine my level of development. When I did make changes, I made them one at a time so that I could feel the difference and determine my next move. Anyone can do the same thing. Just make sure that your car is set up properly and spend twice as much time learning to drive well as you do thinking about modifications or unfair systems. If you're unsure if your car is set up properly, ask a more experienced driver or two within the club to try it out and give you their opinion. When you start outdriving faster cars in your "old" car, it's a pretty awesome feeling. I highly recommend trying it.

[JERRY B]

At least the forum is alive again

I'm not sure if my car is setup properly

[Dan Chambers]

Whew! I'm exhausted just reading the forum's posts.

Bill, I have reviewed your proposal in its entirety. Kudos for making such a great effort to realize a more balanced and "fair" playing field for competitive driving within our circle of friends.

Having said that, I want to share some history, and some personal insight into the issue of car classes, drivers, and healthy competition in the arena of AX and TT's within the PCASDR, and what I think needs to be done to make every driver more competitive in a fair system.

Historically we have battled with car classes and individual car classification with great ardor and tumult. There have been many discussion, changes, and disagreements about what a car class is, what is fair, who is playing fair, and how it would work best for classifying cars. There have been confrontations both on the forum (just look at the debates between Tom Tweed and I) and in person at tracks about who's in what class and what is fair. It's a never-ending debate.

My personal take on the current topic is: the current system is not broken and does not need any major fixes. When first introduced from the GGR, I howled in discontent over the new changes. I thought, after years of tweeking, that the old system (A-R system) was finally working okay. Boy, was I wrong. After just one season, I found that the new system better reflected my competitive ability with drivers of similar-performance cars. Regardless of the year or model, the cars I was now competing with were in fact closer to my times and we were all experiencing a satisfying experience of competitive driving.

Things changed. As they always do, I found myself with a very different car when the 3.0 was replaced with a 3.6. My class bumped hugely, as did my competitor's ability to humiliate me. I found myself being bested by 2 and 3 seconds by my "new" competitors and thought I was unfairly classed with some serious "Big-Timers". I didn't think I could ever catch these guys.

Then... the epiphany: It wasn't miss-classification. It wasn't that the car wasn't set up right. I wasn't in the "wrong class." I simply wasn't driving like the drivers in that class. The car? It was fine. The driver ... needed work. Lot's of work. In the last 14 months I've made a concerted effort to improve my driving. Lessons I've been giving others for years finally had to come home to roost with me ... I was the source of the problem. With much effort, and encouragement I've stepped up to the CC-12 class with comforting results. I'm "more" competitive than before with very little change in the car's set-up. It's been what goes on "behind the wheel" that has made the difference.

I truly think the need for more fair driving conditions rests with improving driver's skills, not changing class structures or re-evaluating classification systems. If driver's spent as much time and money in better driver training as they do in improving their cars or creating elaborate classification systems with highly technical tables/graphs/analysis/computer models ... we'd all be better drivers and happier competitors. You want to go faster? Drive faster. You want to be more competitive? Drive more competitive.

Time and time again I have seen drivers return from different learning experiences drive WAY faster than they could before. They took the time and effort to be better behind the wheel rather than change the wheel to be faster. In every case I've experienced as an Instructor, and as a CDI, it has been the case that the driver who takes the time to improve their skills becomes a faster. I have personally experienced this fact.

Bill, if you put Mark Rondeau, Steve Grosekemper, maybe even me in your car, chances are we'd best your best time by a few seconds. Yes, a couple of seconds. If you put Patrick Long in your car, chances are he'd best our time by a second or two. Yes, a second or two.

My point: improving personal skills sets will get everyone further down the road and a lot happier in their driving experience than making changes to a system that has only minor flaws.

Sorry, I have no tables/graphs/calculations to back up my claims. I only have experiences from my past, and those experiences of my former students.

[c4s4pcs]

Dan -

I really hate to ask, but where are your "comforting" results in CC-12? I thought you were still fighting it out in CC-11 with the rest of us peons...

BTW, the years of the cars of the top runners in CC-11 go from 1976 to 2003 - except for Frank kicking our butts (in a 1986 Carrera), any one of can beat the others by 2 - 3 seconds - or lose by the same amount. The system works, at least toward the higher power / more modified end of the scale.

[Ralph]

As others have pointed out, there was a system in place that separated cars more by type of cars (at least that was the goal) than by performance and then "sub-classes" were created based on modifications. As time progressed and the new "faster" cars were produced, people had to try to classify the newer cars in. In a lot of ways, the previous system is similar to what we have now, and suffered the same challenges. In both systems, the process of classification is an iterative process as there are too many changing factors set the rules in stone. While the proposed solution attempts to level the playing field to produce competition, it really changes the game. Whether it is good or bad is a matter of opinion. I do praise the effort in trying to come up with an alternative system, but to what end? I understanding wanting to factor the driver into the equation, but drivers probably add more inconsistencies than the cars they drive. As an engineer, I really place a lot of credit on numbers, equations, and facts, but we do have to start with assumptions that may or may not be true (or fair). Basing the benchmark on TTOD is flawed (not that it is wrong) due to the assumption that it is the best possible time for that track on that day. There have been times that TTOD drivers didn’t put in 100% effort into their times knowing there was no point to win by 5 seconds instead of 2. That also is the same for the rest of the drivers in that event. Basing the classes on the cars without drivers attempts to level playing field as they were delivered from a factory with stated specifications like weight, power, etc. Separating cars by type sounds good and fair, but we have found from experience, it creates too many classes and thus reduces class competition (look at parade stock classes). In the effort to bring competition back, different cars were combined in same class. Modifications will always be a point of contention, but as others have mentioned, some mods help some cars more than others. In the 17+ years of PCA autox and TT, this has been the most fun for competition in classes (both good and bad) and at the end of the day, isn't it about having fun win or lose?

[LUCKY DAVE]

The current system lumps cars of different ability together in the same class. In a few cases greatly differing ability.
Is that better than having one class for each driver as we (almost) had before? Heck yeah, it's a ton more fun!
In my class, I regularly get whipped by Hassan and Carl, both of whom are faster drivers. Is that fair?
Yes. It's natural selection at work.
Hassan and Carl also have much more modern cars with greater potential than mine. Is that fair?
No, but neither is gambling at a casino. It doesn't seem to stop the gamblers from enjoying it. If you don't bet you can't win.

[Dan Chambers]

Dan -

I really hate to ask, but where are your "comforting" results in CC-12? I thought you were still fighting it out in CC-11 with the rest of us peons...

BTW, the years of the cars of the top runners in CC-11 go from 1976 to 2003 - except for Frank kicking our butts (in a 1986 Carrera), any one of can beat the others by 2 - 3 seconds - or lose by the same amount. The system works, at least toward the higher power / more modified end of the scale.

Sorry, typo. I'm still in CC-11. See, my math IS bad.

[mrondeau]

The current system lumps cars of different ability together in the same class. In a few cases greatly differing ability.
Is that better than having one class for each driver as we (almost) had before? Heck yeah, it's a ton more fun!
In my class, I regularly get whipped by Hassan and Carl, both of whom are faster drivers. Is that fair?
Yes. It's natural selection at work.
Hassan and Carl also have much more modern cars with greater potential than mine. Is that fair?
No, but neither is gambling at a casino. It doesn't seem to stop the gamblers from enjoying it. If you don't bet you can't win.

Dave, Your car is not optimized for AX, especially the tighter, slower tracks. At the big tracks, you should be able to clean up with your car as it's set up. Everyone has to make a choice and find a balance. It's almost impossible to find a car and set up that works well at all tracks and layouts.

[mrondeau]

Then... the epiphany: It wasn't miss-classification. It wasn't that the car wasn't set up right. I wasn't in the "wrong class." I simply wasn't driving like the drivers in that class. The car? It was fine. The driver ... needed work. Lot's of work. In the last 14 months I've made a concerted effort to improve my driving. Lessons I've been giving others for years finally had to come home to roost with me ... I was the source of the problem. With much effort, and encouragement I've stepped up to the CC-11(edit) class with comforting results. I'm "more" competitive than before with very little change in the car's set-up. It's been what goes on "behind the wheel" that has made the difference.

Dan, You've come a long way at the big tracks. Most of it was about becoming comfortable at speed and the realization that your car can do much more than you thought. It's the nut behind the wheel that needs the most adjustment.

Bill, if you put Mark Rondeau, Steve Grosekemper, maybe even me in your car, chances are we'd best your best time by a few seconds. Yes, a couple of seconds. If you put Patrick Long in your car, chances are he'd best our time by a second or two. Yes, a second or two.

My point: improving personal skills sets will get everyone further down the road and a lot happier in their driving experience than making changes to a system that has only minor flaws.

Bill, I think you really need to check your car set up and get with some of the more experienced instructors to work on your driving. Reviewing times for the last year, I believe that you are 4 to 12 seconds off of the pace for your car and class at various tracks. Buttonwillow was your biggest differential, but you've only driven it once and it is a very technical track that takes time to learn. Chuckwalla seems to be your nemesis. You should be 8 to 10 seconds faster at that track. Feel free to hit me up for a ride when we're out there. It may open your mind to the possibilities.

[Gary Burch]

my, my, my...

a lot of work has been done on this over the years, and everyone has had some issue with it.
Bill, you have done an amazing amount of work on this.
but.
you cannot insert the driver into the classification system.
that's the purpose of the race.
the current system is close, tires are still under valued, mostly in ax.
mark's right, it's fun beating newer cars with an old, under powered, pre-historic, non-trailer-ed, tub.

[LUCKY DAVE]

Dave, Your car is not optimized for AX, especially the tighter, slower tracks.

No one knows better than me how feeble my car is at AX, everything works against it.
Still, it's a Porsche, and has to run with other Porsches in some class or other at AX. So what to do? Whine that I want my own class that I can win every time? Nah, had that before, it was boring.
Less classes are better.

At the big tracks, you should be able to clean up with your car as it's set up.

Maybe. The car does "punch above it's weight" at big tracks. The reason you rarely see it there is that after racing 35 weekends/year for 30+ years I'm burned out from all that hassle and traveling.
AX is so easy.....

[LUCKY DAVE]

you cannot insert the driver into the classification system.
that's the purpose of the race.

Bingo!
A race starts with a random collection of racers, finishing with them perfectly sorted in rank of ability.

[Jad]

Dave,

I can verify that 951's are a handful to make competitive at AX. Martin, Bill and I had epic AX battles for years with seldom more than a tenth or so between us. Then we went to the big tracks

All of a sudden, that old 944 got several TTOD's. Even got black flagged for being in the red group with a 944. Was a lot of fun having the 951 in its element. You should try the occasional big track, though I am not sure I want the competition

[LUCKY DAVE]

though I am not sure I want the competition

Yeah, I'll be hounding you in your 996. Right after I install the widebody, big tires, 16v 3 liter, and learn to drive faster

[AGill]

A lot of great insight has already been given and my thoughts are very much in-line with a lot of what has been said. For what it's worth (mainly for Bill's benefit) I had written a response yesterday and even though much of what I say has been covered, I'll post it. Bill, keep in mind through all of this that the reason this thread has gotten so much attention and members' time in thoughtfully replying is because we all care about the club and about making our fellow drivers better. I hope you realize after all this that any one of the people in this thread would be more than happy to take what they are saying on the forum and work with you in person to help you where they can. That's pretty cool

After reading through Bill's PDF it is clear that a lot of thought and time went into it. I have to agree with a lot of what the dissenters are saying. I don't think this proposed system accomplishes one of the most important big picture goals most people that participate in our driving events have in common...becoming better drivers! In fact, I think it would have the direct opposite impact if put in place as it would encourage car development before/rather than driver development.

Dave H. brought up some of my driving history with this club and I think it is a good example and proves my point, as well as shows how well the system in place works and why it is important to keep it (of course minor tweaks are encouraged and expected over time). Let's rewind 5 years and look at my path. Then let's assume that 5 years ago rather than me starting with the club as I did with the rules that were in place, instead, let's assume the proposed rules were in place.

Path 1 - Current Rules
I showed up for my first AX in my 993 C4S with PSS10 suspension, M030 ARBs, 235/285 300tw tires and no track time in the car. Of course I had fun but was I fast? Hell no! It was not only all new to me but the car wasn't set up anywhere close to being fast (TONS of UNDERSTEER). Fast forward several AXs and a PDS later and I was building a decent foundation of driving skills and I was getting good enough to realize that I knew what I wanted the car to do, I just couldn't make it do it (nor could instructors who drove it for the most part). At that point I started my journey of reading books and really experimenting with different tire sizes, tires, pressures, ARBs, alignment settings, etc. This was a tremendous education for me over a 2 year time frame and I was learning how to set a car up to get the most out of it along with learning what those changes did to the handling of the car. Why was I doing all this??? To get faster of course. How did I know I could go faster? I had two very good drivers with well setup cars in my early days help me realize how much faster the same classed car could be...Tawfik B. and Joel Bowman. They were in my same class (actually, at first I was classed higher than them because of how the rules treated my widebody...I was still slower than them) and they consistently beat me by a couple seconds. I knew they were better drivers with more experience and had cars that were optimized for our class, this motivated me to learn how to set my car up properly as well as how to drive a well setup car. I think it was after my second season of AX I applied everything I had learned in terms of driving and car setup and removed the AWD system, put in race seats and a roll bar and had the car aligned how I wanted (with guidance of course from the race shop). The car was faster for sure in terms of raw time around the track but the balance of the car was transformed and certainly didn't have any understeer anymore! I spent probably half a season or more learning how to drive my "new" car fast. I went through a lot of rear tires with my tail-happy antics . Only then was I starting to really get faster and give my top competitors a run for their money. Before I knew it I was putting that once slow, pig of a 993 consistently 1st in class, top 5 in raw times and top 5 in BRI. The point...the competitors in my class showed me I could be faster, I took an interest in learning how to get faster, applied it and practiced with seat time. Our current rules gave me the competition and structure to develop into a decently fast driver. I could have continuing to develop my 993 to further optimize it for its class and make it even faster in its class and a top BRI car but I realized it wasn't the car to do that in and would have cost a lot more money than I wanted to throw at it.

Path 2 - Proposed Rules
I show up to my first AX in that same heavy, understeering monster of a 993 C4S with PSS9 suspension, M030 ARBs, 235/285 300tw tires and no track time in the car. I would have fun of course and after a pre-determined number of events I would move out of Novice and into an "RR" class. I would be competing with all kinds of different cars, potentially a well driven 356 or even a Gt3...not driven so well. If I drove well on a particular day I would win my class and feel good. I would look forward to the next event and hope I drove well, but not too well because then my index would change and I would risk getting bumped into the next class where I'd probably be at the bottom of that class. Once bumped up a class, I'd be motivated to win that class and do what it takes to gain that 2 second gap. I'd go buy wider tires maybe, or r-compounds, or add stiffer ARBs. Eventually, I'd get to a point that no matter how much money I threw at the car I'd hit a plateau and my lack of driving skill would really show. To get better, I'd be forced to work on my driving (not a bad thing); however, now, I'd be doing it in a car that needed to be pushed very fast to approach the limits due to the go-fast modifications I had made to get to this point. That would only slow my progress as a driver and potentially be a safety concern. Also, what would be missing is how would I be able to compare myself to cars that should have similar performance. I might be able to look at a similar car in a class or two faster than me but I wouldn't be able to know if that car is there because of the modifications or the driver's skill.

The point - for me (and I think there are many out there that think this way), I will always want to be a better driver and I want a system in place that will allow me to try and gauge my ability to drive and watch me progress. That said, what system would allow the drivers to get an idea of who the better drivers were? The way I understand your proposal, it wouldn't really tell us. If I'm consistently the best driver in my class currently, under your system, a newer driver with 6 months experience in a 991 could be in my class and "win" the class that day. What does that tell us? Nothing. In fact, it might even send that newer driver the wrong message that just because he won that he is a good driver. Let me put this another way. Under our current rules, if we took the consistent winners from each class to the annual Parade to compete in an AX, I'd bet we'd have a pretty good chance of doing well with each of those drivers. Under the proposed system, if we took all winners of the RR classes, it would be pretty hard to say with any consistency that these car/driver combos would do well compared to national competition using a more traditional rule set.

After being involved with our current system for a while I have developed a certain understanding (just my opinion of course) that every car out there has a "sweet spot" in terms of what mods it should take and what class it should fall into in order to be optimized for not only its CC class but also the BRI. The next critical step in the equation is to learn to drive a class optimized car to the limit while continuing to drive the perfect line. Combining all of these tasks in one beautiful lap at an AX/TT is what we all strive for...perfection! The beauty of this sport is that it's impossible be perfect 100% of the time and that's what keeps us coming back.

Now enter my 986, "Cupcake," a car setup I designed on paper before anything else. Many people have questioned whether it is really a CC3 car and if it is legal. I gave it to our own tech guru, Mr. Steve Grosskemper, at his shop for almost an hour to go through it thoroughly, which he did. This was not just a parking lot inspection, the car is legit. Why is it so fast? Simple, it is almost completely optimized for its class AND, more importantly I found its "sweet spot" picking certain modifications that enhanced its weak points. On top of that, I know how to drive it at the limit. The result is a car that can win its class by 3+ seconds routinely and win the BRI.

You said you wanted data...my path is my data. If you want more details to understand some of the ins and outs, I'd be more than happy to share.

Respectfully, Bill, I don't know your driving ability nor do I know how well your car is setup or optimized. However, if I had to guess, I'd say you could benefit greatly from getting the guidance of some of the guys who have similar cars and who are fast. Follow their lead and understand the path they have taken to get to where they are. It's not by accident. If you feel the rules are unfair to your platform, make a suggestion to the rules committee.