AX photos + instructor feedback

[ttweed]

IMO, instructing is a volunteer activity, whereas corner working is an obligation you accept as part of participation in autox. Personally, I don't think exempting instructors from corner work (or offloading it onto the students) would be a fair solution. Yes, that makes the day more strenuous for us instructors, but granting us special privileges seems contrary to the egalitarian spirit of autox....

I think my original point has been buried a bit in the ensuing discussion. I have no beef with working a corner session like everyone else. The problem I had on Sunday was being asked to work TWO corner sessions and drive in four groups during the first two practice sessions with this schedule, and then take timed runs in the next session:

There is no break of more than 20 minutes (while the Yellow group runs) for the entire time if you do that, and that's if everything goes well (which it didn't--I was not relieved from the first corner session until yellow had nearly finished running). How do you even get and eat any lunch with that schedule until the event is essentially over? There is barely time to catch your breath and get something to drink before running to the next task. That is NOT egalitarian by any stretch of the term, and more strenuous with hot weather than we should reasonably expect from people, IMHO. I'm not looking for special privileges, I'm just asking to only work corners ONCE, at most, like everyone else. I could handle that schedule and even come to like it if I (or my student who didn't know how to work corners) wasn't forced to work corners twice. There has got to be some accommodation or flexibility for training newbies in the corner-working assignments.

TT

[ScandinavianFlick]

Tom, apologies for the lack of clarity, my response was not directed at your suggestions, but rather at those from Jad and Monte.

[Ianc2]

I'm one of the wierdos that actually LIKES working corners !!

I'll gladly volunteer to take a new student working to relieve their instructor , or take on an instructors session for them if their work schedule is ruining their enjoyment of the day .

Look me up , or get Martha to page me and if our schedules permit i will gladly do it .

One other suggestion that might work ...
How about I take all the newcomers out at once ?
This past event , corner 4 (2nd 180) would have been an ideal spot to group-session as there was not only both sides of the K-rail to monitor , but the track came past that corner again leading upto the finish line so a lot of the track could be monitored without the "corner students" being too spread out for 1 "coach" .
This too is another thing I will gladly do if it helps out .

I realise a few of the people in question where doing their first ax after completing the driving school , but from experience does the same problem repeat itself at the next ax or is it really just a once per year thing ?

[ttweed]

I realise a few of the people in question where doing their first ax after completing the driving school , but from experience does the same problem repeat itself at the next ax or is it really just a once per year thing ?

There is always a higher percentage of first-timers at the AX event after the PDS, but there are newbies at every event throughout the season. Since the PDS includes a corner-worker training session, some of those students are already prepared to work corners alone at their first competitive event, depending on their comfort level. My student last Sunday had not attended the PDS and had no clue what to do, other than the brief instruction included in the driver's meeting, and there are usually a few of those at every autox.

Your willingness to work two corner sessions is commendable, Ian. It might offer a viable solution to this problem if there are enough others of like mind, who also made it known to the Reg. team and the corner-working chair that they are available to take out new students. Since the students are primarily in two run groups, the Reg. team could put the drivers willing to work twice in a run group that wouldn't conflict with that, and the corner-working chairs could call those people as needed during the day. Or alternatively, as the Red group contains many of the instructors and the folks running the event who need a pass on corner-working, it is always short of workers, and the "two-timers" could be scheduled to work that group, allowing the instructors to go out with their student's group.

It's worth a look at whether such an arrangement could help.
TT

[Ianc2]

What kind of numbers at each event are you used to seeing tom ?
The point being that if there are 6 "new" corner workers at the next event it will take 6 instructors to go out with them .
Yet if they are strategically placed in pairs at say 3 corners or even better alone at 6 corners close together I could handle it on my own , freeing up 6 instructors .
I realise the chance of having 6 corners that close together is bordering on impossible , so having the 6 in two differnt run groups with myself doing both sessions is Probobly the best scenario .

Back in England , for years I was an ABA boxing coach so can handle large numbers , but the safety issue of having them too spread out would be a major concern to me .
If this can be overcome by placing the work group at a certain part of the track it would DEFINATELY be viable

[ttweed]

What kind of numbers at each event are you used to seeing tom ?

I have never worked Registration or know if they keep track of that, but quite often in the past, the driver's meeting has opened with the question "How many people are here for their first autocross?" I can remember many events where 3-5 people have raised their hands. After the PDS events, there can be more, I'm sure.

I think the best training experience comes from an instructor sharing the corner work with a single student, or at most two, but that's just my opinion. Getting separated on the course wouldn't allow as satisfactory of an exchange of information, I don't think, though one person might be able to supervise more.

As Chuck said on the previous page of this thread, maybe this is a good topic to be addressed at the instructor social on Oct. 8th?

TT

[martinreinhardt]

Check the main results page, which has some good information: http://results.pcasdr.org/pca.php?database=

We had 21 new drivers at the last event: http://results.pcasdr.org/new_drivers_asof.php?eventdate=2014-09-07&database=. What would also be interesting to know is how many actually return and how frequently.

[martinreinhardt]

My question is: How much effort do we put out for how many committed drivers return to our events?

I calculated the average new drivers per event. It's 13 new drivers per event (data from 2001-2014) and in 2014 the average new drivers per event is 13.5. Where are all these newly trained drivers? I think we spend too much effort on new drivers at Autocross events, that is what we have two PDS events a year for.

Autocross is entry level racing and the risk of somebody getting hurt is pretty low. When I drove with SCCA in 2000-2001, there were no instructors and they allowed passengers for anyone new or experienced.

[ttweed]

My question is: How much effort do we put out for how many committed drivers return to our events?
I calculated the average new drivers per event. It's 13 new drivers per event (data from 2001-2014) and in 2014 the average new drivers per event is 13.5.

Wow, that is higher than I would have guessed. But it represents any driver who has never run with us before, no? This number would include drivers from other clubs (SCCA, BMW, Miata, and even other PCA regions) who already have some autox experience, as well as PDS graduates who have at least one training session in working corners. Another question that would be relevant to the scheduling question at hand is: "How many new drivers at our events have never worked a corner before?"

TT

[Ianc2]

My question is: How much effort do we put out for how many committed drivers return to our events?

I calculated the average new drivers per event. It's 13 new drivers per event (data from 2001-2014) and in 2014 the average new drivers per event is 13.5. Where are all these newly trained drivers? I think we spend too much effort on new drivers at Autocross events, that is what we have two PDS events a year for.

Autocross is entry level racing and the risk of somebody getting hurt is pretty low. When I drove with SCCA in 2000-2001, there were no instructors and they allowed passengers for anyone new or experienced.

Hey Martin .
The risks might be low , but the photos of a corner worker resetting a cone when a car is coming towards them are now being shown during driver meetings .

A car traveling at 60mph is traveling 88 feet per second .....

The minimum training is covered in the drivers meeting , but that is not enough for a first-time corner worker in my opinion .
However the real issue appears to be the volunteer instructors having to work a double shift rather than the safety concerns of new cone collectors , as upto now nobody has disagreed with that part of it .

Let's not forget , this is all about having FUN !!!
If the instructors are not happy , let's do all we can to help them .
However , safety should not be compromised as result of that .
If somebody gets injured at an event , it will immediately stop being fun ......

Regarding the PDS , I had a few conversations that weekend that broached on the subject of the students being better prepared for the school had they attended an autocross prior to the weekend .
Its a double edged sword I guess .

I had no idea the numbers where that high at each event !!!
I guess this needs more discussion before you guys can work it out , yet my offer of volunteering stands .

Watching Porsches drive on a track standing so close you can hear and smell the rubber scrubbing off ....
What's not to like !!

See you at the next one .
Ian

[Kim Crosser]

TT

Ouch! Even if everything worked perfectly, there are problems here.
As someone noted with asterisks,there are two places in this schedule where instructors/students have to go directly from driving to corner working. That was one of the original problems I solved with the 6 pattern schedules. Whenever that happens, corner working always gets messed up.
You have to wait for all (or almost all) of the drivers to exit the car before you can start sending them out to corner work, the run group is seriously delayed if they are coming off and having to get into their cars, and no one gets a break between sessions. (When does Red/Blue get lunch? Just before timed runs?)
Also - IMO - sending students out as drivers BEFORE they ride in the right seat is a mistake. If they haven't seen the line and the corner approaches from the right seat, how do we expect them to figure this out while actually trying to drive.

The criteria for the previous patterns were:
1. No instructor drives while their student corner works or vice versa (obvious requirement - appears violated in last session above).
2. No one goes directly from driving to corner working or vice versa (IMO - this is key to keeping people from burning out).
3. (debatable) Students should ride with their instructors first, then drive. (I know this has pros and cons. Many people don't like jumping from their instructor car immediately into their student's car.) I think this may be a 50/50 opinion item in the club.
4. (discussion item) I deliberately only had Red, White, and Orange doing the timed run corner working, as those are the most experienced groups. If another group (say Yellow) were allowed to do corner working, there might be another pattern or two available. However, it always seemed that Yellow had some drivers who had little or no experience calling cones for timed runs (and certainly Blue and Green are where we usually put the students.) Plus, if you have a student in Yellow, do instructors in Orange have to corner work those sessions? How did that work in the picture above? Orange is the Instructor group for Yellow students, so how can Orange drive while Yellow corner works???

[mrondeau]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

[LUCKY DAVE]

I expect the discussion at the instructor's social to be a lively one.
If I can find them, I'll bring those old boxing gloves.......

[Greg Phillips]

TT

Ouch! Even if everything worked perfectly, there are problems here.
As someone noted with asterisks,there are two places in this schedule where instructors/students have to go directly from driving to corner working. That was one of the original problems I solved with the 6 pattern schedules. Whenever that happens, corner working always gets messed up.
You have to wait for all (or almost all) of the drivers to exit the car before you can start sending them out to corner work, the run group is seriously delayed if they are coming off and having to get into their cars, and no one gets a break between sessions. (When does Red/Blue get lunch? Just before timed runs?)
Also - IMO - sending students out as drivers BEFORE they ride in the right seat is a mistake. If they haven't seen the line and the corner approaches from the right seat, how do we expect them to figure this out while actually trying to drive.

The criteria for the previous patterns were:
1. No instructor drives while their student corner works or vice versa (obvious requirement - appears violated in last session above).
2. No one goes directly from driving to corner working or vice versa (IMO - this is key to keeping people from burning out).
3. (debatable) Students should ride with their instructors first, then drive. (I know this has pros and cons. Many people don't like jumping from their instructor car immediately into their student's car.) I think this may be a 50/50 opinion item in the club.
4. (discussion item) I deliberately only had Red, White, and Orange doing the timed run corner working, as those are the most experienced groups. If another group (say Yellow) were allowed to do corner working, there might be another pattern or two available. However, it always seemed that Yellow had some drivers who had little or no experience calling cones for timed runs (and certainly Blue and Green are where we usually put the students.) Plus, if you have a student in Yellow, do instructors in Orange have to corner work those sessions? How did that work in the picture above? Orange is the Instructor group for Yellow students, so how can Orange drive while Yellow corner works???

Different goals for different priorities:
1 The instructors would work first and train their student if needed to mitigate having to work 2 sessions. The instructors are not driving while students are working, but they are driving just before the students go out
2 The students are not driving but need to get out of instructors cars early in the second session to get ready to corner work
3 I prefer letting the student see the track first and then having a better idea of what the instructor is doing differently- no right or wrong
4 We have the driver groups working corners rather than the instructor groups (see #1) There has been a learning curve as they learn how to call in cones during timed runs, but not a long term issue in my mind

There are 2 instructor groups (RED & WHITE) , 2 student groups (GREEN & BLUE) and 2 driver groups (ORANGE & YELLOW)

Greg

[ttweed]

The instructors would work first and train their student if needed to mitigate having to work 2 sessions.

Once again, this means the student will work corners twice instead of the instructor and have no free time. I don't think that is a nice introduction to AX for a new recruit. I would never come back if that last event was my introduction to an autocross. I'd quit or find another club to run with. You need a bigger break somewhere to get food, eat it and digest a little before jumping into the next task, at the very least.

TT