917?

[MikeD]

That's it for me, I will post no more, this thread is too long and rambling as it is to go into why the 917 took a development competition between Porsche Salzburg and John Wyer Engineering to make it successful....

OK Bob, since you didn't want to go into in the other thread, I thought I'd start a new one as I am always interested in reading about Porsche history. Please tell us what you know about the 917...

[Bob Gagnon]

Ludvigsen's book goes into it in depth, so check out my story.

My take on it is that Ferry Porsche wanted to keep his nephew Ferdinand Piech, who was in charge of R&D at Porsche at the time, under control. Ferdinand Piech was the son of Ferry's sister Louise who has the married name Piech.

Anyway, Piech was the guy who developed everything from the 906 to the 917 and was kind of a genius madman, and development of the 917 was not going so well. The 917 as originally designed was a very difficult car to drive.

So Porsche management set up an agreement with John Wyer, the same guy that developed the Ford GT40, to develope the 917 in parallel with another "customer effort" from Porsche-Salzburg which was the Porsche distribution network controlled by Louise Piech. Both had full factory support.

The Wyer team was responsible for the chopped off body that the 917 finally won Le Mans with. Ironically the car that crossed the finish line in 1970 was the Porsche Salzburg entry as the Wyer cars did not finish.

A couple of years later nepotism was ruled out in Porsche mangagement and Piech was kicked out along with his cousin, Ferry's son Ferdinand Alexander who was in charge of styling and designed the 911.

Piech went on to become the CEO of VW/Audi and was in charge until last year. Note all the interesting stuff to come out of Audi under his direction W-12 engines, narrow angle V6 engines, all manner of Turbos, 4 wheel drive, DSG gearbox, aluminum bodies etc.

Ferdinand Alexander went on to found Porsche Design and designed Sunglasses followed by a hugely successful watch and custom design studio.

Kind of like loosing a left brain and right brain genius contributor at the same time. One wonders what Porsche would have been like if they could have gotten along and run the company.

As they say:" the rest is history".

[MikeD]

Excellent! Thanks Bob.

[kary]

I think if people that are relatively new to Porsche were to read the books on the 917 and Porsche history they might understand some of the other view points that have put forth about the quality of the street cars today.

[Gary Peterson]

Bob, I also enjoyed the history lesson, and hope to hear more![/list]

[Bob Gagnon]

Here is another 917 story, check my facts in Mark Donohues book The Unfair Advantage.

Just as John Wyer developed the 917 for La Mans, Roger Penske developed it for American Can Am racing. Penske engineering was headed by Mark Donohue the brilliant driver/engineer who was ultimately killed at the Osterrichring in Austria driving a Penske F1 car.

The 917 Turbo engines reputedly had HUGE horsepower but when Mark went to Weissach to test the 917 he found it undrivable. Undriveable because the engine would not run at less than full throttle and the Turbo 917 sputtered around the test track producing lousy times.

When he asked the Porsche engineers to see the engine power curves he found they started at 5000 rpm, not below. When he asked why he was told "the engine doesn't run there". Porsche never considered less than full throttle necessary!!!

The engineers had merely tested the engine at full throttle, full boost and there was no drivablility. The engine was a pig.

Donuhue, working with engineer Helmut Flegl, mapped engine fuel flow curves first with the Turbos removed, then with them in place. The engineers thought Donohue was nuts-and probably also felt a little wounded and wanted him to fail.

Fuel curves were worked out and sent to Bosch where a new fuel injection pump was built and fitted to the engine. Donohue started the engine up and it idled perfectly. He drove off and the engine died, it would not run anywhere but idle. Donohue made an educated guess that it was lean and asked the fuel flow meter to be opened by 15 clicks rich as the engineers looked at him with bad looks. The engine ran and he did a lap with it sputtering and came back in and asked for 10 more clicks of the fuel meter.

The engine ran perfectly. Lap times plummeted and the engineers were even happy. The pump became known as the "happy pump" and was kept at Bosch so whenever there was a problem they went back to the "happy pump"

From Germany Donohue sent this telex:

"Just ran with recalibrated fuel injection. Very much improved engine now running at alll throttle positions. New lap record 48.9 Must still make intermediate range checks on dyno tomorrow. The writer is very encouraged. Please inform Captain of major break thru." Mark. (Roger Penscke is still called "The Captain" by the team)

Books to read are the one cited above as well as We at Porsche by Ferry Porsche and Ludvigsens book Excellence was Expected for more storys.

The history of Porsche is very rich, too bad those running the company today have no respect for it, other than as a sales tool.

I couldn't belive it when Schwarzbauer, the CEO who runs PCNA gave a speech to the Porsche Parade attendants that was printed in the latest Panorama.

In the speech he mentioned the new Cayman as "the only mid-engined car in it's market segment".

That was it, Cayman car = mid engine market segment.

He could have said" "Dr. Ferdinand Porsche was a fan of the low polar moment of a mid-engined design. He designed the Auto Union and Cisitalia racing cars as mid-engined cars. Porsche number one was mid engined, all of our Le Mans winning cars and most of our racing cars have been mid-engined and here is our new mid-engined street car built in homage to the brilliant engineer Ferdinand Porsche".

The market segment part was all that made sense to the guy. What a bozo IMHO.

[ttweed]

Great story, Bob. What a loss to the Porsche world when Donahue was taken from us.

I have to agree with your conclusion. The marketing and accounting putzes are dominating the corporate structure today, and have lost sight of what built their brand, which was innovative engineering and a dedication to racing at the top levels of the sport.

If I learned anything from my education in political science, it was the theory that as all organizations grow larger, they become more corrupted. I liked Porsche better as a small, family-owned business.

TT

[MikeD]

I have to agree with your conclusion. The marketing and accounting putzes are dominating the corporate structure today, and have lost sight of what built their brand, which was innovative engineering and a dedication to racing at the top levels of the sport.

If I learned anything from my education in political science, it was the theory that as all organizations grow larger, they become more corrupted. I liked Porsche better as a small, family-owned business.

Tom, Tom, Tom! You're going to get Jad and Kim all riled up again if you keep posting messages like that. Didn't you see the last thread that went in this direction?

[ttweed]

Didn't you see the last thread that went in this direction?

Ooops! You're right. I take it all back. I don't want this thread to tangentiate. I want Bob to post more stories.

TT

[Bob Gagnon]

You guys have to read the books, I have been thumbing through Donohue's book and it is full of great stories.

Here is a quote, not about the 917, but about the decision Penske made on which cars to run in the first IROC racing series. Fords, Mustangs, Camaros, Porsches and Javelins had been considered.

Finally the 911 3.0 Carrera RS (a car we never got in the USA) was chosen, modified with a racing rather than the street engine.
They were chosen because Penske wouldn't have to build them, they were relatively cheap, they would be truly identical, and most important dead reliable.

Here is Marc on the reliability:

"Dr. Fuhrman had told me once that the car couldn't be broken-as long as it wasn't over-revved and as long as it was shifted correctly. And that was really quite true. They come with Cam-Am brakes, dry-sump lubrication, fuel injection, good ignition, oil coolers, stainless-steel exhaust pipes and a not of nice things that only racing people can appreciate. "

I like that quote.

Building cars racers appreciate is what made the brand!!

As you probably know, Dr. Fuhrman was CEO of Porsche at the time and also was the designer of Porsches first true racing engine the 4-cam Type 547 used in the 550 Spyders to the 904. The last of the track-racing CEO's.

[ttweed]

"Dr. Fuhrman had told me once that the car couldn't be broken-as long as it wasn't over-revved and as long as it was shifted correctly."

I have a replica sticker on the radio-delete plate in my '73 that I have heard was used on the IROC cars because of these problems. Many of the drivers came from other racing series which used high-revving engines and racing dog-boxes with straight-cut gears that did not require the clutch to shift. The Porsche engineers supposedly became disgusted with the abuse of the cars and repairing the damage after each race, so they attached these to the dash:



TT

[Jad]

Too late

Bob, while we can debate the need for dry sump etc in a street car, there really is no question that you would fail marketing. Your quote

"He could have said" "Dr. Ferdinand Porsche was a fan of the low polar moment of a mid-engined design. He designed the Auto Union and Cisitalia racing cars as mid-engined cars. Porsche number one was mid engined, all of our Le Mans winning cars and most of our racing cars have been mid-engined and here is our new mid-engined street car built in homage to the brilliant engineer Ferdinand Porsche". "

Fails marketing. The typical person sees blah, blah, blah, you need a simple advantage and its benefit. 99% of the people wouldn't take the time to read, don't understand the terms, don't know what lemans is, nor do they care about Fred Porsche. It may be good to include these things in the car or on a spec sheet burried in a brochure, but it will not sell cars to anyone but engineers

He really should have said the Cayman is the only car in its segment with a mid-engine design, like an Indy car. Or something like that.

Marketing 101 is dismissed

[kary]

Too late

Bob, while we can debate the need for dry sump etc in a street car, there really is no question that you would fail marketing. Your quote

"He could have said" "Dr. Ferdinand Porsche was a fan of the low polar moment of a mid-engined design. He designed the Auto Union and Cisitalia racing cars as mid-engined cars. Porsche number one was mid engined, all of our Le Mans winning cars and most of our racing cars have been mid-engined and here is our new mid-engined street car built in homage to the brilliant engineer Ferdinand Porsche". "

Fails marketing. The typical person sees blah, blah, blah, you need a simple advantage and its benefit. 99% of the people wouldn't take the time to read, don't understand the terms, don't know what lemans is, nor do they care about Fred Porsche. It may be good to include these things in the car or on a spec sheet burried in a brochure, but it will not sell cars to anyone but engineers

He really should have said the Cayman is the only car in its segment with a mid-engine design, like an Indy car. Or something like that.

Marketing 101 is dismissed

I think you hit the nail right on the head Jad. I agree with your statement about the public not understanding what Bob is saying....but then, that is the problem, the public does not know what they are buying but they think Porsche is a symbol, they just don't know what it symbolizes.

[Bob Gagnon]

Got an "F" in marketing, ruling out "salesman" as a career path for me.