Socials and Tours

[Jad]

Before doing anything too drastic, maybe there should be a poll or vote, as I know of a lot of people that prefer to have the option of alcohol and I really am tired of people crying that everyone MUST conform to their beliefs. NONE of these places require drinking, it is always optional. That appears to not be good enough for some, if they don't want to drink, no one else should be allowed to drink. While I, and probably about everyone agree, no one should be driving drunk, I have not witnessed that at any of the tours or socials.

I think the commitee has done an excellent job picking a variety of locations and experiences that have offered, but not forced, many options for everyone. Keep up the good work and don't let the minority of whiners get you down.

[sushinav]

Dave,
You want to go run canyon roads for 5 hours, call me anytime. I'll lead.

But leave your attitude at home. Alyson was kowtowing to your requests and "personally I could care less" was rude. You owe her an apology.

Drive safe.

[pyro57]

Jad,

Obviously you are the one who want's everyone to conform to your beliefs, anotherwords of you have an opinion don't share it, because Jad does not want to hear it. Read the post and open your mind up to the fact that other people's opinions may have some validity. If you hold a position in the club either as an elected officer or as a volunteer it does not necessily mean that you are allways right, But it does mean (in my humble opinion) that you have an obligation to at least listen to the opinion of the membership, if you don't like what you hear, go ahead and do it your way, at least you listened. From reading your reply I assume that you don't feel that anyone should speak up about anything that they disagree with or they are a whiner. As far as drinking, I don't care if you do or don't, my point was that I didn't feel that "all" of the events had to end up at a brewery or a winery.
If you don't like for people to diagree with you then you'll have to "Get over it".

Sushinav,

I will give you a call the next time I do a run, I'm always looking for a new driving buddy when I do a run with my other friends, there usually is a large variety of cars from some old original corvette racers to an original 427 cobra. If Alyson feels that I owe her an apology than I apologize. But I don't attend the socials nor would I.

I also feel that the volunteers do a great job for the membership and the club. I've allways said that this is the best car club that I've ever belonged too and I've belonged to many including the Mustang club, jeep club, triumph club and the BMW club.

[MikeD]

... I really am tired of people crying that everyone MUST conform to their beliefs. NONE of these places require drinking, it is always optional. That appears to not be good enough for some, if they don't want to drink, no one else should be allowed to drink...

I have been keeping an eye on this thread and have been trying to come up with a way to express what I am thinking. And this little snippet expresses it very well. I don't attend Tours or Socials, but of the events I do not think I have ever heard the Chair/Host/What-Have-You say that you MUST have a beer if you are going to hang with us. But maybe this is not true of the Tours. Maybe, since that last Tour I went on, the chairs have changed and are forcing people to down a couple.

...Obviously you are the one who want's everyone to conform to your beliefs, anotherwords of you have an opinion don't share it, because Jad does not want to hear it...

I don't see where Jad is saying that at all. In fact what I think Jad is saying is "I have read your thoughts and frankly I could care less." Pretty much the same thing you said to Alyson.

BTW, you posted your message on a public forum. Did you really think that noone was going to disagree with you and say so?

[kary]

... I really am tired of people crying that everyone MUST conform to their beliefs. NONE of these places require drinking, it is always optional. That appears to not be good enough for some, if they don't want to drink, no one else should be allowed to drink...

I have been keeping an eye on this thread and have been trying to come up with a way to express what I am thinking. And this little snippet expresses it very well. I don't attend Tours or Socials, but of the events I do not think I have ever heard the Chair/Host/What-Have-You say that you MUST have a beer if you are going to hang with us. But maybe this is not true of the Tours. Maybe, since that last Tour I went on, the chairs have changed and are forcing people to down a couple.

...Obviously you are the one who want's everyone to conform to your beliefs, anotherwords of you have an opinion don't share it, because Jad does not want to hear it...

I don't see where Jad is saying that at all. In fact what I think Jad is saying is "I have read your thoughts and frankly I could care less." Pretty much the same thing you said to Alyson.

BTW, you posted your message on a public forum. Did you really think that noone was going to disagree with you and say so?

Mike, I did not read pyro57's comments to mean what Jad replied with. Meaning, everyone must conform. I think pyro57 is trying to say that he does not feel anyone really is listening based upon their replies. Jad's did not help much from that respect.

I posted earlier in this thread about the leadership (and the community) should try and make people feel welcome and heard. We just posted a set of rules for this forum and if I am not mistaken part of this was to make sure that others in the club felt welcome to post here. I do not think that pyro57 really feels all that welcome by many of us. I could be wrong, but call it a gut a feeling. Put yourself in his shoes, whether his point is right or wrong, have we handled our responses to his question as well as we could have to make him feel he was heard or did we just shut him down with the usual replies?

[Gary Burch]

Mike D wrote...

I have been keeping an eye on this thread and have been trying to come up with a way to express what I am thinking. And this little snippet expresses it very well. I don't attend Tours or Socials, but of the events I do not think I have ever heard the Chair/Host/What-Have-You say that you MUST have a beer if you are going to hang with us.

That's it. My last offical act as AX chair is- You must drink to drive!

[Jad]

Jad,

Obviously you are the one who want's everyone to conform to your beliefs, anotherwords of you have an opinion don't share it, because Jad does not want to hear it. Read the post and open your mind up to the fact that other people's opinions may have some validity. If you hold a position in the club either as an elected officer or as a volunteer it does not necessily mean that you are allways right, But it does mean (in my humble opinion) that you have an obligation to at least listen to the opinion of the membership, if you don't like what you hear, go ahead and do it your way, at least you listened. From reading your reply I assume that you don't feel that anyone should speak up about anything that they disagree with or they are a whiner. As far as drinking, I don't care if you do or don't, my point was that I didn't feel that "all" of the events had to end up at a brewery or a winery.
If you don't like for people to diagree with you then you'll have to "Get over it".
.

Did you even read my post The first line is why don't we do a poll or take a vote? How do you get that my opinion is the only one that counts from that? Or is that the best arguement you have at this point?

Kary, I agree with you, but if you read Ralphs very pleasant response to start this thread, pyro57 is the one that made it nasty and had the big attitude. New people should feel welcome, but that doesn't mean they can be mean and complain about things and expect everything to change just for them. From what I can tell, you, pyro and Larry vote for less drinking, and about 40 others I have talked to like it how it is. So, from my unscientific pole, club leaders are providing what the members want. There are a lot of others who were just smart enough not to voice their opinions, THUS THE POLE IDEA??? Oh wait, my opinion is the only one that counts as it is probably what the majority want, but not what pyro wants, thus mine counts and his doesn't - maybe that is his point

[pyro57]

I really am tired of people crying that everyone MUST conform to their beliefs."

Do you mean the belief that all events need to end or be at a brewery or pub?

That appears to not be good enough for some, if they don't want to drink, no one else should be allowed to drink."

Wow, I really don't remember saying no one should drink.

I think the commitee has done an excellent job."

I'm glad that we agree on something!

Keep up the good work

I love encouragement!

and don't let the minority of whiners get you down.

Name calling!!!!! whiners!!!!! and we were making such progress! did you mean winners?

Don't you just hate when someone takes things you say or write out of context?

[kary]

Kary, I agree with you, but if you read Ralphs very pleasant response to start this thread, pyro57 is the one that made it nasty and had the big attitude. New people should feel welcome, but that doesn't mean they can be mean and complain about things and expect everything to change just for them. From what I can tell, you, pyro and Larry vote for less drinking, and about 40 others I have talked to like it how it is. So, from my unscientific pole, club leaders are providing what the members want. There are a lot of others who were just smart enough not to voice their opinions, THUS THE POLE IDEA??? Oh wait, my opinion is the only one that counts as it is probably what the majority want, but not what pyro wants, thus mine counts and his doesn't - maybe that is his point

I took your advice and read through the post of Ralph and then pyro. While Ralph was not mean, he basically told pyro that you cannot satisfy everyone and you do not have to attend if you do not like the drink part. While this is a reasonable response on the surface, it does rub people the wrong way in that they feel they are part of the club and would like to be heard on the issue. Telling them to stay away if they do not like does not foster inclusion, at least I do not think it does.

[Ralph]

Should I have said…?
"Please come join us in something you are not interested in! Please come and make yourself miserable."

My point may not have been clear. Club members do what they are interested in. Some race, some do socials, and some do rallies. The beauty of SDR is that we have a little bit of everything that people can get involved in that MAY be of interest. The way we have new events is for someone to step up and make a suggestion, or better yet, plan something. This is similar to what Jack Miller has done with the big track events, or Margie started with the last Tuesday socials. If Pyro doesn’t like the tours to end at a pub, all he has to do is drop an email to the tours chair and ask for a tour that is 5+ hours of driving. He can even request a date, if planned enough ahead, to fit in to his busy schedule. The most difficult part of keeping events going in the club is coming up with new ideas. I think that most everyone who has been in a leadership position in this club, have always been open to new ideas. This actually makes the job easier.

As I also stated in an earlier post, it is very difficult to write something and convey information without emotion. This is once again not intended to insult anyone, but just to inform them. I know people are still going to read into this and get upset. For this, I’m sorry. I’m just an engineer not a writer.

[Brett Souza]

The only way to make change is to get involved. Complaining on this forum is not the way to go about it. No one says you have to do it all, because no one should have to do it all.

http://web2.pcasdr.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1071

Like Ralph said, pick a date, make a suggestion on the route, maybe even include a fun outing that doesn't include alcohol if that's what floats your boat, I'm sure others will step up and help out with whatever needs to be done. That would take you less energy than you already put forth here.

That's how change is made. Otherwise, things will continue the way they have been and you will continue to feel excluded which is not what anyone here wants (IMHO).

[Dan Chambers]

I posted earlier in this thread about the leadership (and the community) should try and make people feel welcome and heard.

Kary:

You've insinuated/indicated twice in this thead that the leadership and the community should try harder to make people feel welcome and heard. I would just like you to re-read my reply to Dave. As an active member of the PCA "community" and a member of the "leadership" I think I gave Dave a good ear, and encouraged him to join us at all events, putting a high value on the comaraderie that I believe is the PCASDR. This, coming from the Vice-President of the club. Was this not evident in my post? Did my comments not seem to suggest a hearing of his concerns, and welcoming him in as a friend and club member? I also responded directly to his query regarding PCA liabilities and obligations over drinking, driving, and responsibility to all members. Do you interpret a direct response to a question as "not listening?"

Speaking as a volunteer, recipient of Enthusiast of the Year, former A-X Chair, current Vice-President, and future Co-CDI and Parade Event Chair, I find it difficult to swallow some times when people imply that "your just not trying hard enough." As a Board member and Vice President, I think it's fair for me to say that those of us in the leadership role past, present, and future ARE listening; are working hard to find the best solution to current issues that benefit the entire PCA community, and take our leadership roles very seriously. That we have failed to convey this message to you (and, apparently others) means we're still not communicating our degree of involvement and effort. I guess we'll just have to work harder for you, kary Clements.

Respectfully.

[kary]

That we have failed to convey this message to you (and, apparently others) means we're still not communicating our degree of involvement and effort. I guess we'll just have to work harder for you, kary Clements.

Respectfully.

Thanks Dan, I am sure you will do your best!

[Dan Chambers]

That's it. My last offical act as AX chair is- You must drink to drive!

Excellent! I'll have a Pepsi, and a Snickers Bar chaser! Maybe I can catch you!

[paul-silver]

I've been following the evolution of this thread since I posted my reply. I don't think anyone read it.

There *are* events which do not end at pubs or bars. The tours that Paul Hastings and Keith Verlaque have been putting on typicall end around 10am at a breakfast place, like the Julian Cafe. No booze. Rallies tend to end around noon and sometimes end at places that may or may not serve alchohol.

So I don't know how anyone can get the idea that every event has to end at a brewery or winery. It just ain't so.

As I mentioned before, the social events are typically held at moderately nice restaurants, which almost always sell alchohol. It's inescapable in most cities. The only places these days which do not serve alchohol are fast food places, and I think the turn-out for a social at Subway would be pretty small. None of the events ever require drinking, and, in fact, an effort is made to provide non-alchoholic beverages for those who do not imbibe but wish to socialize.

And finally, I mentioned that the Brewery Tour is a 3 stage event, the first of which is a spirited drive through north county roads. Please do join us for this. As I mentioned, we would be happy to have you there, and would not think any less of you if you did not join us in the brewery tour or lunch.

Best regards,