Socials and Tours

[pyro57]

Should I have said…?
"Please come join us in something you are not interested in! Please come and make yourself miserable."

My point may not have been clear. Club members do what they are interested in. Some race, some do socials, and some do rallies. The beauty of SDR is that we have a little bit of everything that people can get involved in that MAY be of interest. The way we have new events is for someone to step up and make a suggestion, or better yet, plan something. This is similar to what Jack Miller has done with the big track events, or Margie started with the last Tuesday socials. If Pyro doesn’t like the tours to end at a pub, all he has to do is drop an email to the tours chair and ask for a tour that is 5+ hours of driving. He can even request a date, if planned enough ahead, to fit in to his busy schedule. The most difficult part of keeping events going in the club is coming up with new ideas. I think that most everyone who has been in a leadership position in this club, have always been open to new ideas. This actually makes the job easier.

As I also stated in an earlier post, it is very difficult to write something and convey information without emotion. This is once again not intended to insult anyone, but just to inform them. I know people are still going to read into this and get upset. For this, I’m sorry. I’m just an engineer not a writer.

Ralph,

What I was really looking for was a "we will take it under advisement" . I didn't feel personallly slighted by your post. The reason that I didn't send an E-mail to the chairs is because I wanted to see if I was the only one who had thought along these lines and by sending an "E" to the chairs they would be the only ones to see it.

Thanks for your very kind response, Dave

[pyro57]

The only way to make change is to get involved. Complaining on this forum is not the way to go about it. No one says you have to do it all, because no one should have to do it all.

http://web2.pcasdr.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1071

Like Ralph said, pick a date, make a suggestion on the route, maybe even include a fun outing that doesn't include alcohol if that's what floats your boat, I'm sure others will step up and help out with whatever needs to be done. That would take you less energy than you already put forth here.

That's how change is made. Otherwise, things will continue the way they have been and you will continue to feel excluded which is not what anyone here wants (IMHO).

What you say is very much true; People should help out the volunteers. But I think that this is a forum! what would you like to hear on a forum? Talk about blue skies and butterflies. Nope, sorry, Since Roman times a forum is a place to express ideas, show that you agree or disagree about policies, tell people how you feel and even tell them to stop complaining (as you did me), it’s a beautiful thing and it leads to progress.

[pyro57]

I posted earlier in this thread about the leadership (and the community) should try and make people feel welcome and heard.

Kary:

You've insinuated/indicated twice in this thead that the leadership and the community should try harder to make people feel welcome and heard. I would just like you to re-read my reply to Dave. As an active member of the PCA "community" and a member of the "leadership" I think I gave Dave a good ear, and encouraged him to join us at all events, putting a high value on the comaraderie that I believe is the PCASDR. This, coming from the Vice-President of the club. Was this not evident in my post? Did my comments not seem to suggest a hearing of his concerns, and welcoming him in as a friend and club member? I also responded directly to his query regarding PCA liabilities and obligations over drinking, driving, and responsibility to all members. Do you interpret a direct response to a question as "not listening?"

Speaking as a volunteer, recipient of Enthusiast of the Year, former A-X Chair, current Vice-President, and future Co-CDI and Parade Event Chair, I find it difficult to swallow some times when people imply that "your just not trying hard enough." As a Board member and Vice President, I think it's fair for me to say that those of us in the leadership role past, present, and future ARE listening; are working hard to find the best solution to current issues that benefit the entire PCA community, and take our leadership roles very seriously. That we have failed to convey this message to you (and, apparently others) means we're still not communicating our degree of involvement and effort. I guess we'll just have to work harder for you, kary Clements.

Respectfully.

Dan, You are the best! You were and are, very encouraging and did not make me feel in any way unwelcome. But I think what Kary was saying was why did not one person who posted just say "wow Dave, we will take it under advisement?" no, the general response was “please show up and drive but skip the booze if it makes you uncomfortable” and I greatly appreciate the feeling of welcome. But what was also written one case “I don’t think you should use the forum for complaining” also “you are a whiner”. I think the club has always done an excellent job of putting on events and many of my car buddies outside of the club are amazed at the amount and quality of the events that are put on by our club.

[Dan Chambers]

Thanks for your support and friendship, Dave.

To be honest, no one has ever really expressed the notion of alcohol at any of our events; whether it was good or bad, wanted, needed, or even considered.

More than anything, I think you're query caught a lot of us off-guard as far as the presence (or absence) of alcohol at a car club event. (I know I never gave it a second thought. ) Like many, I just took it for granted that beer or wine was present, mostly because alcohol is present at so many "adult" social events (parties, dinners, happy-hours .... even work parties). Perhaps we owe a small apology to those who are not alcohol consumers. It's a tough, and sensitive issue for those who prefere non-alcohol events. I know people have asked about veggie/vegan foods at events, so why not alcohol-options as well?

In retrospect, there are a few people out there that will thank you (probably not out-right) for raising a relevant issue. So; point well taken. Thanks for bringing it up.

Having said all this, I still want to encourage you, and your family to join us on driving events and socials. It's always nice to have you around. Monica and I hope to see you soon!

All the best!

[ajackson]

There is a difference between a restaraunt that sells alcohol and a pub. I don't think he was complaining about there being drinks served or even going to a brewry, just that they almost all seem alcohol centered by ending at an establishment that is meant for drinking (not one that merely serves drinks).

More variety of ending locations can't be a bad thing (and is the take away I get from the whole discussion).

[tb911]

Dave:
First of all, I'd like to say that I agree with Kary -- the leadership of this club always needs to strive to listen to the membership and make them feel like they have been heard.

You asked in one of your replies if “every event had to include alcohol”. Whether you intended it or not, the implied tone of your post is that you are offended when alcohol is served, that you don’t like people who drink and that you don’t believe in freedom of choice. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, just that’s the tone that I read (the danger of the written word.) I’m sure this is the reason that some of the responses to your post sounded the way they did, I’m probably not the only one to interpret it this way.

Our social events usually include alcohol, whether or not they are at a restaurant. Our rallies end at restaurants. Our tours frequently end at restaurants. Restaurants serve alcohol. We serve alcohol after autocrosses. The fact is that the majority of club members like to drink alcohol. This is not to say that the club is about alcohol, and especially not drinking and driving, rather it is a fact of human nature and American society. As I’m sure you are aware “majority rules” and non-drinkers are in the minority in America. We plan events so that the most people will attend; to attract and entertain the largest possible number of club members. After all, we are here to serve the membership with events that they want to attend.

You happen to focus on one event that is specifically aimed at alcohol, the Brewery Tour. (The other is our annual wine tour.) The whole point of this event is to tour a brewery; to get to know the local beer culture of our environ. We have been doing it for several years and it has been very popular. Do we expect to attract the non-drinkers in the club? No. However, we do expect to attract a significant number of interested members, and we have been proven correct year after year. This is a very popular event, one that the membership wants and enjoys. (Or at least enough enjoy to warrant continuing.) There are always many other tours for non-drinkers every year.

If the other clubs you tour with have a variety of ending places for tours that are interesting, either restaurants that don’t serve alcohol or non-restaurant ending places, then please send these to our tour chairs as ideas for the future.

As Paul Silver said, all the other tours we offer are not centered on alcohol. They either end at breakfast, or if it is lunch or later, the alcohol is coincidental, not a focus of the event. This goes for all of our other events where alcohol is available. With the exception of a Brewery Tour and Wine Tour, any alcohol is external to the main event, and purely up to the choice of the participant.

Since you, yourself, said you don’t attend socials, and alcohol is incidental to most of our rallies, tours and other driving events (except for a select couple a year), it seems that your question was answered before you even asked it. Yes, there plenty of events for a non-drinker to participate in.

[pyro57]

Tom,

First I'd like to say that I agree with many points that you make. But I am not offended that alcohol is served at the events even if my post made it look that way. I absolutely believe in the freedom of choice and I chose to not attend events that I know alcohol will be served. Why? You may ask? (Or maybe not) Well just for the record both my parents were alcoholics my brother and stepfather both died of complications of alcoholism. My two living brothers are very ill due to complications from alcoholism and I also am a recovering alcoholic (11 years). Also both of my wife’s parents and all but one of four siblings is an alcoholic. But people drinking does not offend me as I go to many events that do serve alcohol. Do I believe in majority rule? Sure! If it is a true majority. But the fact is that this is a club. The PCASDR has how many members? 1000, 1500, 2000. how many attend events? Autocrosses maybe 150 max, socials 30 to 40 max, tours 50 max, Tech sessions 40 max. so I ask you, are you in the majority or are you in the vocal minority? You say that events are planned so the most people will attend so why don’t they? The way I read some of the posts in the thread was that many people are offended by the thought that alcohol should be excluded from SOME events. That any opinion but that of the minority (of club members) that posts on this forum is unwelcome and should be attacked and called names, not that this even bothers me because this is a forum and all opinion’s should be at least heard. I would also ask how do you know that the Majority of club members like to drink alcohol? Have you done a poll? I think what you mean is (forgive me for being so bold) that the majority of the members that show up to events want to drink! And I agree that is probably true. You say that a significant number of “interested members” are attracted to the events. It is convenient to quantify a statement within a statement. I really don’t think that more than 10% of the true membership shows up to any one event. But I doubt that alcohol is the cause of the missing members. You also bring up the serving of beer after an autocross. If the club supplies the alcohol then part of my membership dues or autocross fees are going to pay for alcohol, not that I care about that, but the club could be responsible if any of these people is involved in an accident on the way home. We all know that all you need is a good lawyer and a sympathetic judge. Finally, you ask if I answered my own question. Absolutely, the fact is that I pretty much figured the responses would be as they were and that is not why I posted this. I posted this to see if anyone else also felt that there were too many events ending up at a pub or bar and I was pleasantly surprised to find other members felt like I do. But you also seem to imply that “if you don’t like alcohol don’t attend”. And that is also an attitude that I expected.

Thanks, Dave

[paul-silver]

I would like to reiterate a point I've tried to make twice and that Tom tried to make. We *do* have events which do not end at pubs or breweries.

TOURS - most of our tours start at 7am and end with breakfast, at venues such as the Julian Cafe. They are fun drives of twisty roads with a good breakfast at the end, and no alchohol.

And as I have tried to point out, rallies end at restaurants and last Tuesday socials are held at restaurants. Please let us know if there are some good restaurants that you would like to see the club hold social events at which do not serve alchohol. The only places I've seen which do not are places like Carl's Jr, Jack in the Box, and Panda Express (i.e. fast food). It is very difficult, if not impossible, to find a decent restaurant which does not also serve at least beer and wine. It is *not* the point of these events to go somewhere to drink. It's just that you can't find good restaurants without it, and some people like it, too. It provides a choice.

As Tom tried to point out, there are very few events which are specifically designed to inclide alchohol as the main reason for the event - the annual Brewery tour and the wine tour or wine tasting. This is a very far cry from the claim that every event ends at a brewery or pub.

[pyro57]

I'd like to reiterate a point that I've tried to make too many times. I really don't care if these events include drinking (contrary to my first post) and I do feel the way that many events are presented is in a way that promotes drinking. If you drink you drink, if you don’t you don’t, great, we agree on that. But to state as Tom did that most people in the club do this or that is a presumption, that is unless you have done a pole of the membership and found out the facts. Are you reiterating in order to make a point or to shut me up? The fact is that if someone posts on this thread I will answer. That is only polite.

Thanks, Dave

[MikeD]

Holy crap, man! You just want to be pissed off at the club, and its leadership don't you?

You start an antagonistic thread, all your posts within the thread are antagonistic. So when people give you attitude back you are offended by it? It is what is called a self fulfilling prophecy. You lead in with an antagonistic and accusatory post. And people respond in like manner, as you expected and initiated. So then you can console yourself that you were justified in being an a$$ to begin with.

You bitch about all the events focusing on booze. Between Paul and Tom they proved you were wrong, and it's really only 2 events per YEAR that are directed toward alcohol. Now you change your face and decide to attack them for something else. What the...?

Relax a little. Don't be so angry. I know most of the people that posted here personally, and I doubt whatever it is that you are so angry about is their fault.

P.S. Only one poster that I saw agreed with you about the alcohol. The other poster(s) that agreed with you, did so on a different subject. So with this thread as a sample population, you are definitely in the minority. And even with you being in the Minority, the chairs are willing to cater to your needs. And STILL you are pissed? Couldn't say "thanks". Or maybe, "I'll see if I can find a suitable place, let me get back to you". Just a bunch more attitude.

[pyro57]

Mike,

Actually, I'm not pissed about anything. But you sure seem to have an anger problem. You really should work on that you know, it leads to hypertension, or so I hear. More name-calling? an A$$? And I really thought that we were beyond all of that. I’ve read my posts and I see places where I have shown appreciation for the board and it’s volunteers but if they do feel slighted, than I’ll say it again, thank you very much for all that you do and I still say that this is the best car club that I have ever belonged to. In one of my posts I did say that I would get with the chairs to suggest a place. As for your personal feelings, I can’t help that, but I’m happy that you have a forum to express them. Also I just don’t see where anyone has proven me wrong. If you like, look at my posts and see if I’ve provided examples of what I was talking about. If you feel that my examples were inadequate then that is your opinion and there may be merit to what you say. But all of my examples came from this website. If you have to resort to name calling then you have already defeated your point. But as my old gaffer used to say “open up and let me know how you really feel, this is eating you up inside”

Thanks for your opinion,

Dave

[RickK]

Tom,

The PCASDR has how many members? 1000, 1500, 2000. how many attend events? Autocrosses maybe 150 max, socials 30 to 40 max, tours 50 max, Tech sessions 40 max. so I ask you, are you in the majority or are you in the vocal minority?

Events have to be planned to serve the needs and wants of those who show up. Could different events pull different and more or less people? Sure. But by yor logic, since only the vocal minority shows up to events we will need to cancel the autocross series because that only serves 10% of our members. Finding venues for events, not to mention activities, that could draw a majority of members at one time would be nearly impossible.

[pyro57]

Tom,

The PCASDR has how many members? 1000, 1500, 2000. how many attend events? Autocrosses maybe 150 max, socials 30 to 40 max, tours 50 max, Tech sessions 40 max. so I ask you, are you in the majority or are you in the vocal minority?

Events have to be planned to serve the needs and wants of those who show up. Could different events pull different and more or less people? Sure. But by yor logic, since only the vocal minority shows up to events we will need to cancel the autocross series because that only serves 10% of our members. Finding venues for events, not to mention activities, that could draw a majority of members at one time would be nearly impossible.

Rick,

As I said before on this thread, use the entire context of the text. Tom said that the majority of the membership beilieved a certain way and I asked if he had come by his data by a pole of the entire membership. I agree that this would be hard to do. But if your going to state statistics, back it up with data. Otherwise it's only an opinion.

Dave

[Curt]

"It's not the cars, it's the people."

I love that slogan.

[gulf911]

I'll keep this short:

I don't agree with any club event , regardless of how few, that ends up at a pub or bar where you will be drinking and 'driving' home. Please spare me the only a couple beers and I am not impaired and I am a responsible drinker BS, save that for the judge. This is not meant to offend anyone, just my .02 on drinking and driving.