PCA SDR

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:21 pm**

Just received an E-mail about a tour for November 5th and I was excited because I have not been on a tour in a while. Then I see it is a tour of brewery. Don't we have enough brewery tours with the last Tuesday socials? they allways seem to happen at a bar. I don't want to demean what the volunteers are doing, but I don't hang out at bars and I don't drink alcohol. When I am notified of a tour that will happen on the weekend I assume that it is a back country tour. To tell you the truth I dont feel that the club should sponser any events that involve drinking. After these events people drive home.In this case the brewery is in Vista and lunch is in San Marcos. What if club members are impared and are the cause of an accident? is the club responsible? I know that we sign a release but does this happen at the socials? Can my 17 y.o. son attend the brewery tour with me? and do I want him on the road with more people who are drinking? Sorry but this does not seem very family friendly to me. I've seen many people bring their teenagers on back country tours. I know that I'll hear all the "if you don't like it why don't you volunteer" stuff. But I'll let you know that I work many 7 day weeks. I could be wrong but I think that tours should be of back roads and not brewery's. I prefer to drive my car when I have a day off.

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:57 pm**

This is a driving tour that happens to have a brewery tour and lunch afterwards. ( ~3.5 hours of driving according to the schedule). If you are not interested in the brewery tour or lunch, you don't have to attend that part of the event.
As far as the reason for these types of places are that a lot of club members really enjoy fine food and drink. You can't make everyone happy. :lol:

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:41 pm**

And I don't expect everyone to be happy and don't worry I won't be an this tour, but the exact attitude that you display (if you dont like it get out or don't attend) is the reason that this forum is not utilized and that fewer and fewer people are remaining in this club. I will probably remain in the club because the magazines alone will justify the membership dues. I'm thrilled that you enjoy fine food and spirits but that still does not answer my question, so i'll re-phraise it. Does every event have to include alcohol? Look at the post for tomorrows tech session. A keg of beer, are you just going to have a glass of beer and enjoy the tech session or two beers or three beers? I went on the mistery weekend a few years ago and at dinner I watched as many people had too many mixed drinks and drove the ten miles back to the motel. Yes you have the right to enjoy a drink now and then but you don't have the right to put other peoples lives at risk by drinking and driving. So I ask again, is the club responsible if something happens?

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:26 pm**

I read your first post and thought I'd let it go, but I'm off work today looking for Porsche stuff and just had to respond.

pyro57 wrote: and don't worry I won't be at this tour, but the exact attitude that you display

Wow Dave, I didn't think his reply was all that harsh, nor did it have a negative attitude. Yours sure does...

pyro57 wrote:I know that I'll hear all the "if you don't like it why don't you volunteer" stuff.

Yep!

pyro57 wrote:But I'll let you know that I work many 7 day weeks.

So that gives you the right to complain about it?

How hard could it be to organize a tour? Hmmm, let's see. We all meet at the west end of the parking lot, drive a couple of hours to somewhere for breakfast and then everyone is on their own to either head home for the football game or do some antiquing...

pyro57 wrote: Sorry but this does not seem very family friendly to me.

I may be new to PCA-SDR, but so far I have found it to b very family friendly and the organizers very responsible regarding drinking and driving.

People are people and we must all teach our children to be responsible for their actions.

Have you thought about bringing you son to the Rally on the 29th?

My daughter will be riding with me there. My girlfriend will be with me on the brewery tour :wink:

pyro57 wrote:So I ask again, is the club responsible if something happens?

Ask an attorney and depending on who side they're on, they will answer either yea or nea.

We are all responsible for our own actions. We must make the right choices at the right time. The courts are getting away from blaming an organization for the actions of an individual.

If you don't want to go, that's your choice. If you don't like the direction this club is headed, step up and make it better. That is a choice too.

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:44 pm**

My intention was not to insult, but rather to explain what the club and its volunteers do. Emotion is difficult to convey in writing. Your first post appeared to have a lot of underlying emotion that I tried not to address.

The following is not intended to insult, but rather to inform:

Having been a past board member and chair, there has been a lot of discussions on proper events to promote. PCA is a social club like many others and I believe it would be very difficult to find a club that has as much participation and as many events as PCA (not just PCASDR) and not have issues with members getting carried away. We do have a waiver for all events now as it was mandated by PCA national. (To learn more, you may contact our insurance chair Bob Lemke for more details.)

As you know, our club is made of entirely volunteers and they actually come up with and plan the events themselves. No matter how much caution we take in the planning process, people are going to exercise their own judgment and drink too much, drive too fast, and break many of the laws that are there to "protect" others. We do not have control over our club members and we do discourage illegal activities. Many of the members actually do carpool to events that involve alcohol and have a designated driver.

If you have a suggestion on how the club can improve their events, please contact the chair of the type of event or a board member. We are always looking for ways to make the events safer and more pleasurable for all. We still hope to see you out there!

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:31 pm**

pyro57 wrote: So I ask again, is the club responsible if something happens?

Dave: You and Susan were some of the first people Monica and I met; on a tour that included lunch and beer in Temecula; way back in 2002. We have seen each other many times on tours, and at other events like the PDS (our first in spring 2002), A-X's, and other tours over the years, and it's always great to have you at an event. We'd love to see you enjoy more social events like tours, Last Tuesday Socials, etc. Please don't feel discouraged by the presence of alcohol at some events. I think it's safe for me to assume that the Social and Tours Chairs don't plan their events around alcohol, or the encouragement of drinking, and then getting on the road. I truly believe their intent when planning any event is: #1 Driving a Porsche somewhere; #2 enjoying a great venue for socializing. That the ending of a tour or social gathering might have alcohol available is merely coincidental (unless, of course, you're talking about a tour specifically to taste wine. These are intended to pique the interest of the palate, not destroy brain-cells and "get wasted"). We can't control the actions of others (like drinking after any events), however we can encourage responsible behavior, which - I think - our Chairs do emphasize.

To answer your liability question: the PCA isn't responsible for individual behaviors associated with illegal activity such as excessive speed on Tours, drinking and driving, or causing an accident. My opinion/ and interpretation is: Just as bars can not be found criminally negligent for a drunk driver (with certain exceptions, of course), the PCA cannot be help responsible if someone drinks in excess and goes out and wrecks their car. At least, this is my view. All individuals are responsible for their own actions at all of our events. The waiver is a reminder of that. I could be wrong about that, and someone like Michael Harris or Mickey Walker may want to add to this idea, but the way I see it, we are all responsible for our own actions, every minute of every day.

Aside form all this, I want to encourage you to bring your family to our events. I'm sure you go to Street Fairs, Concerts, and other gatherings where drinks might be served (beer gardens, etc). Like other venues, I encourage you to ignore the aspects of any event you may not like, and come out to a great PCA club event. It's about the cars, and the people. That's what the PCA-SDR is all about. Monica and I hope to see you soon.

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:03 pm**

As the event organizer and a member of the social committee, I thought I would respond.

General Social events like Last Tuesdays, etc: The places we go to are restaurants, not bars. It's hard to find restaurants that do not also serve alchohol, except for fast food places. We try to find nice restaurants with interesting food that people will enjoy.

Other events like tours usually include either a meal at the end (morning tours with breakfast at the end) or before (full moon tour) or include some other interesting visit (last year's Palm Canyon hike, the Brewery tours last year and this year).

And, as was mentioned by Ralph, the Brewery is just one segment. There will be a fun tour of back country roads in the morning. Meet at North County Fair mall at 8am, drivers' meeting at 8:15, depart at 8:30am. The tour will last approximately 2 1/2 hours, ending in Vista.

The Brewery tour segment includes a voluntary tasting. It will not involve large amounts of drinking (they're in business to make money, not give away all their product). People who do not want to participate do not need to.

Lunch afterwards is about 3 miles away from the brewery.
Again, the restaurant was chosen (a) for its location, CLOSE to the brewery, and (b) because it seemed like a nice place to have lunch.

If you would like to participate in the drive but are not comfortable touring the brewery, we would love to see you for the morning drive with your son and would understand if you don't stay for the rest.

Posted: **Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:44 am**

Brett Souza wrote:I read your first post and thought I'd let it go, but I'm off work today looking for Porsche stuff and just had to respond.

pyro57 wrote: and don't worry I won't be at this tour, but the exact attitude that you display

Wow Dave, I didn't think his reply was all that harsh, nor did it have a negative attitude. Yours sure does...

Thats right it's harsh, because it's the same attitude that I expected. These tours have allways been for driving your car in the back country and seeing some sights. If your going to have a social, then have a social. If your going to have a tour, have a tour. I didn't define these activities, the club has.

pyro57 wrote:I know that I'll hear all the "if you don't like it why don't you volunteer" stuff.

Yep!
brilliant answer.

pyro57 wrote:But I'll let you know that I work many 7 day weeks.

So that gives you the right to complain about it?

The first ammendment and the fact that this is a "forum". The fact is, except for a few exceptions, if you express a dissenting opinion your complaining. If you agree with everything that is done in the club or any organization for that matter there is no improvement. If I disagree I will voice it. if you don't like it, don't read my posts. Wow that sounds familiar.

How hard could it be to organize a tour? Hmmm, let's see. We all meet at the west end of the parking lot, drive a couple of hours to somewhere for breakfast and then everyone is on their own to either head home for the football game or do some antiquing...

Actually, It's much harder than that. Normally these guys and gals drive the course they will follow weeks prior to the event. They sometimes set up a small breakfast before and sometimes refreshments during the tour, they also have to make the reservations at whatever restaurant that we eat lunch at. Hmmm, let's see. Sounds a little harder than you thought. I doubt that I have the organizational skills to make it a good tour. But one thing that you can believe is that (before i was disabled) when I do show up at an event I allways help out, including showing up early to throw cones or unload the trailer at an autocross.

pyro57 wrote: Sorry but this does not seem very family friendly to me.

I may be new to PCA-SDR, but so far I have found it to b very family friendly and the organizers very responsible regarding drinking and driving.

People are people and we must all teach our children to be responsible for their actions.

This is true and it also includes personal responsibilities to the people you have with you at your event or home. If my friends come over to my house with their kids they are responsible to watch them, but I am responsible to provide a safe environment or to let the parents know of unsafe conditions.

Have you thought about bringing you son to the Rally on the 29th?

No! I prefer for my son not to hear the kind of language that eminates from my car at rally's

My daughter will be riding with me there. My girlfriend will be with me on the brewery tour

pyro57 wrote:So I ask again, is the club responsible if something happens?

Ask an attorney and depending on who side they're on, they will answer either yea or nea.

We are all responsible for our own actions. We must make the right choices at the right time. The courts are getting away from blaming an organization for the actions of an individual.

If you don't want to go, that's your choice. If you don't like the direction this club is headed, step up and make it better. That is a choice too.

At this point I'll have to sign off and go to work.also my hands can't take this much typing (disability)[/b]

Posted: **Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:55 am**

paul-silver wrote:As the event organizer and a member of the social committee, I thought I would respond.

General Social events like Last Tuesdays, etc: The places we go to are restaurants, not bars. It's hard to find restaurants that do not also serve alchohol, except for fast food places. We try to find nice restaurants with interesting food that people will enjoy.

Other events like tours usually include either a meal at the end (morning tours with breakfast at the end) or before (full moon tour) or include some other interesting visit (last year's Palm Canyon hike, the Brewery tours last year and this year).

And, as was mentioned by Ralph, the Brewery is just one segment. There will be a fun tour of back country roads in the morning. Meet at North County Fair mall at 8am, drivers' meeting at 8:15, depart at 8:30am. The tour will last approximately 2 1/2 hours, ending in Vista.

The Brewery tour segment includes a voluntary tasting. It will not involve large amounts of drinking (they're in business to make money, not give away all their product). People who do not want to participate do not need to.

Lunch afterwards is about 3 miles away from the brewery.
Again, the restaurant was chosen (a) for its location, CLOSE to the brewery, and (b) because it seemed like a nice place to have lunch.

If you would like to participate in the drive but are not comfortable touring the brewery, we would love to see you for the morning drive with your son and would understand if you don't stay for the rest.

Paul, I understand that These places are restaurants but I still think that too many of these places are geared toward alcohol.
Look at the past socials and see how many of them emphsize alcohol.
January= La Jolla brewing Co..
Feb. Sage grill (famous for great food and wine)in ad.
March=Oggi's Pizza and Brewing co..
Apr.= Japengo (no mention or picture of alcohol) in ad.
May= Hennesseys tavern.
June=Portugalia Restaurant and Pub.
July=Cabo grill (Picture of pina colada) in ad.
Aug.= Kings fish house(Picture of beer glass and fish) in ad. Sep.=Ki's (Enjoy dinner drinks and camaraderie) in ad. .
And October will be at Canes (music food and spirits)

I personnally don't have a problem with people drinking but I don't feel all events have to end at the pub. Leave that to the last Tuesday socials. If you dont want suggestions then say so. That,s fine but I don't feel that the board has all the answers. The board is an elected body and as such should listen to all members, not Just board members. If you don't like a suggestion just ignore it. But then this becomes no longer a "club".

Posted: **Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:18 am**

I greatly appreciate the efforts of our volunteer event organizers, but I share some of Pyro57's concerns about the number of SDR events that are oriented toward breweries, wineries, etc. My concern is not so much that our members might not act responsibly, but that the common theme becomes repetious. This occurs often enough that I've sometimes been heard to say: "Drinking and driving--it's what SDR does best."

Unlike Pyro57, I do drink--one drink almost every evening. But I'm not a connoisseur of either wine or beer. In fact, if I'm going to drink beer, I prefer it without elaborate pedigrees. Many of the places SDR visits seem to feature only exotic brews at exotic prices. Thanks, but I'll have a Bud.

Waivers notwithstanding, I don't know whether SDR might have any liability in the case of a drinking-and-driving accident. If so (assuing all the I's had been dotted correctly), PCA's insurance would protect the club, it's officers, and the event organizers, but that's certainly a path we don't care to explore.

The nature of Last Tuesday Socials makes it natural to gather where food and alcohol are available. I have no problem with that, although I would prefer that they focus less on locales where alcohol is the featured attraction--e.g., breweries, martini bars, etc. In any case, driving is peripheral to these events.

Tours are a different matter because driving is the essence of those events. The San Diego area offers many interesting destinations that do not feature the production or consumption of alcohol as their raison d’être. Some of these would seem better choices as tour destinations.

Posted: **Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:40 am**

I agree! Lets eliminate the socials alltogether as they are obviously so devisive; that way we will have more money to spend on competitive driving events...and, of cource the beer and wine afterwards. :lol:

First amendment...first amendment!!!

Posted: **Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:47 am**

I really have to agree with pyro57's sentiments about the club listening. Over the past 8 years of being in this club there are certain phrases that are heard over and over again. I listened to them and tried multiple ways to help out and change those things that many folks in the club felt needing adjustment. That has not worked on many and has worked on some, but the majority of them it has not.

The club leadership really should listen to the members comments and stop telling the members why what they are saying it is not true or accurate, particularly when those leaders know little about the topic. There are of course those members that are making a point that is not valid, but then there is still a way to make them feel they are heard and ultimately understand their point of view is not correct or even possbile to implement. Unfortunately I have not seen that approach used enough and it has turned off members including me at times.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:10 am**

I personally thin we should hit a pub before each autocross......It might help us watercolled people be a bit faster...

Being a private pilot as well, alot of the events for pilots ended with a beer or 2 to converse and have a good time...car and plane people are responsible enough to have a beer and not get smashed and drive home.

I don't see why you can't go on tour and go for lunch after and just have an iced tea or soda and still have fun takling about the drive!

I don't drink much myself but an ice cold beer after a 3 hour drive or auto cross sure tastes good!

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:05 pm**

As co-chair of the Social Committee this year, I was not aware that any members felt uncomfortable or alienated from attending. As organizer of at least half the "Last Tuesday" socials this year (see those listed in the posting above), it might help to understand the criteria set by the club and thus used for selecting the venues concerned:
1. Events are held at no cost to the club;
2. Venue must have space sufficent for and dedicated to the event (approximately 30-40 per event) at no charge;
3. Venue must serve food, as many attendees come straight from work and eat dinner at the event;
4. Venue must have ample free parking for attendees;
5. Venue must have sufficient and/or dedicated wait staff to service our attendees.

Additionally, we request (but do not require) the venue to provide a graphic to be included in the advertisement in the Witness and special menu pricing be extended (i.e., appetizer discounts through 7pm, etc.). These requirements are made for the sole benefit of the attendees, but make it quite difficult for the Social Committee members to find appropriate venues.

Trying to be responsive, I investigated numerous places suggested to me by members only to be turned down because the venue could not or would not fulfill these requirements (despite the fact that we were delivering 30+ people to their establishment on a Tuesday night free of charge - ya, go figure).

The Social Committee this year has made significant effort to schedule events all over San Diego to accomodate north county and east county members. I would be happy to schedule a Last Tuesday social next year at an establishment that does not serve alcohol but that fulfills the criteria listed above. Please send me your suggestions.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:28 pm**

Actually my post was about the tours. I could personnally care less if every social ends at a venue that surves alcohol because I don't attend them anyhow. What I was saying was that I don't believe that the tours also need to end at a bar or brewery. But then I would rather drive my car for 5 hours than for three and a meal. But it really does not matter at this point as I'll be driving with my other car friends as they have the same goals in a tour as I have. But I will get with you with some suggestions as to places that you can use for your socials. I still think that the volunteers do a great job.

Thanks, Dave

PCA SDR

Socials and Tours

Socials and Tours

Last Tuesday Socials