AX Ride-alongs?

[Jad]

I was wondering if a determination was ever made whether we could have charitable ride alongs at AX's? Charge $5 per lap so they are 'registered' at the event, but only allowed as passengers with the money going to charity.

Is this possible, or does insurance prevent non-members from registering at an event even as a passenger? Does this preclude non-members from attending 'social' events and rally's as well?

Just curious. Trying to help charity and scare some friends and family at the same time

[Steve Grosekemper]

Jad,

That is an excellent idea you have there. (IMHO) So good is your idea that it was a rules proposal this year. Unfortunately, the rules committee eliminated the proposal before it went to the presidents for an official vote.

However there is provision for just what you are considering here in the SDR DE rules.

E) A “Taste of the Track” program may be implemented. This will allow a person to ride in the passenger seat of an instructor’s car during a DE track session for instruction only. The participant will register for the event, pay an entrance fee, and sign the insurance waiver. The event master must approve all participants and instructors for this program.

F) A “Track Tour” program may be implemented. This will allow drivers to tour the track at reduced speed. The driver must have a valid driver’s license, register for the program, pay an entrance fee, and all vehicle occupants will sign an insurance waiver. There is no age restriction for passengers. Under age passengers will have a responsible adult sign the waiver for them, and shall use DOT approved restraints appropriate for their age and weight. All occupants will use at least DOT seat belts. The Track Tour program will be run separately from DE run groups and may be run without corner workers. There will be enough pace cars well spaced in the track tour group to keep speeds well below “track speed,” with a maximum speed of 65 mph suggested. Participating vehicles are not limited to Porsches. All participating vehicles must be approved by the chief tech inspector as generally roadworthy.

So prior to the next SDR DE, you can ask the event master about this.

It can't be done for Z-8 AX or DE because if we have an incident and we are not obeying the rules to the word, we could have insurance issues.

[Kim Crosser]

Of course, I don't see where the following is waived (from the Zone 8 DE intro):

A) Participants must be at least 18 years of age, possess a valid state driver's license, be a member or affiliate of PCA in good standing ...

Therefore, even participants of a "Taste of the Track" are required to be PCA members or affiliates, especially since it refers to the rider as a "participant".

The "track tour" introduces a bit more ambiguous language, since it repeats part of the requirements above (e.g., "driver's license") and refers to them as "passengers" and "occupants", which seems to supercede the requirements of (A). Combined with the "not limited to Porsches", this seems to open up track tours to non-PCA persons.

The latter is probably worth a little clarification in the next edition of the rules.

[MikeD]

I like the idea Jad. I say keep the pressure on until someone says "OK". And you've got my vote for it next time it's proposed.

NASA has a provision to take passengers out during HPDE sessions. I've taken advantage of it once or twice. Good fun. Hope it works out here.

[Kim Crosser]

I like the concept of "civilians" being able to take some rides - particularly the charity donation concept.

I would strongly suggest that only Instructors be permitted to take such passengers for rides at any venue. I.e., the "if 2 persons are in the car, one must be an Instructor" rule should continue in force.

I think we have all seen too many novices (and yes, even instructors) over-driving their skill level. Having a non-driving participant ride along and be involved in an incident could cause a huge liability problem.

Jad's comment about "scare some friends..." was in jest, and I would certainly trust Jad to give riders a safe (but fun) ride, but I can sure picture some of our AX drivers who would over-drive to impress their passengers and possibly wind up in serious trouble.

[MikeD]

I understand the PCA is a little over-cautious when it comes to stuff like this. So if it has to be "instructor only" in order to come about I'd be ok with that. But on the whole, I do not agree that it needs to be "instructor only". NASA's rule is that if you spin just once your passenger carrying privileges over for the day. Seems like a reasonable rule to me.

[Bob Gagnon]

There were PCASDR times when anybody could take anybody anytime for a ride....and they were fun times. More fun than now.

I found recently, to my amazement, that SCCA allows passengers

I don't recall at an SCCA event if anybody had me sign a waiver at the gate or before a ride...

Our legal environment sucks, but the insurance PCA provides perhaps sucks too.

Why can't PCA be insured by a company that allows SCCA freedoms? Is it that more expensive?

[Otto]

The easy way out is not to allow any "civilian" passengers, period. However, I also believe, along with many others, that this rule goes too far. If legal liability is the problem, signed waivers should be able to take care of that. To me allowing passengers in an AX is a no-brainer. How dangerous can it be heeding the safety precautions that are already in place? That is how I got my "taste of the track" many moons ago and started participating in events. Back in the mid to late eighties passengers were allowed even in TT events with an instructor and proper safety equipment and we never had a problem that I know of. At TTs, of course, "civilian" passengers should only be allowed with instructors, with proper safety equipment. Signed waivers are a given. You lawyers out there, wouldn't properly-worded signed waivers resolve the liability issues?

[Steve Grosekemper]

The original intent of the "taste of the track" program was to give affiliates a chance to see what continuous lap action is like without having to spend all the money and find out that it was not what the person expected.

It is much easier to talk the spouse into a track day if they get to drive. This is a great way to get their feet wet. But, be aware you may have to increase your tire budget substantially!
Isn't that right Mr. Ibbetson?

As to insurance, PCA insurance is a tiny fraction of what we could do on our own. SCCA insurance has much tighter speed restrictions than we have (top speed 60 mph)

While not perfect, we have it pretty good...

[Dan Chambers]

My view:

1) A-X's are inherently safer than TT/DE's due to single car/single lap protocols, lowers speeds, and tight cornerworking standards (calling in cones, black-flagging for all-wheels-off, etc.). With slower speeds, no multiple-car situations, and tight cone/off-track safety protocols, risks to "riders" is greatly reduced (not eliminated.... reduced).

2) If the drivers are Instructors only, the safety factor is further improved based on the experience and continual practice of Instructors having students as passengers/ride-alongs. No ride-alongs should be permitted unless the driver is an Instructor.

3) All ride-alongs are subject to the same rules and regulations required for student drivers/novices, and even spectators in regard to Insurance coverage as indicated by signing the waiver. Assumption of risk is taken by the passenger/occupant of the vehicle, and said occupant is educated and agrees that occupying a vehicle at such an event is inherently risky, and they agree to hold harmless the driver, the other participants, the PCA, and any and all entities involved with producing the event, not limited to the City of San Diego, the county, etc. Currently, these assumptions of risk are accepted by the drivers and Instructors at our driving events, and agreed to prior to participation. These conditions must also be accepted by the passengers/occupants for "ride-alongs." All current rules should apply to ride-alongs regarding qualifications: 18 years or older, member or affiliate of PCA (I might stretch it to immediate family members of Instructor.... but I'll leave that up for discussion), and sign the waiver.

We may want to develope a "signature sheet" that explains the risks, and have a "signature of acceptance" at the bottom, much like a ski-rental business does.

4) Funds generated should go to the Charity program, and would enhance the appeal to both the passenger, and the Club. As an idea, funds could be generated on a "per-lap" basis or "per-session" basis.

So, with safety factors being what they are, and the explicit understanding and acceptance of risk undertaken by the passenger (preferably by signature), I personally don't have a problem with Instructors taking passengers along. I'd support the idea, unless, of course, there are compelling reasons against it.

My 2-cents

[Gary Burch]

My .02

The ride along sounds like a good idea. I would limit it to ax's only. A much more controlled event, and much safer. I would also limit it to 1 event, such as the other car ax. Then if we needed additional insurance for coverage we could get a one day liability policy.

Waviers and such would need to be worked out. Instructors only would drive and I think it also might be worth taking kids for a ride. Set the age at 12 or so. I remember my first sports car ride, 8 years old in a bug-eyed sprite. I was hooked.

[Steve Grosekemper]

Gary,
You can't allow any ride alongs for anyone below 16 years of age and 16-17 year olds must have a all the minor (junior participation) waivers filled out and signed.

Note to all viewers- read the rules. All of your questions are answered there (well most of them, probably)

Ride alongs are only available for DE.
http://www.pcasdr.org/drivered/RegionDE ... 502rev.doc

Not for AX, no matter what the chairs say.
http://www.pca.org/zone8/rules/DrivingB ... 5Final.htm

Rules for minors are here
http://www.pca.org/members/library/ins/ ... 20Form.pdf
http://www.pca.org/members/library/ins/ ... %20(minors).pdf

[gulf911]

too bad for steve they don't ban 16 year olds completely....

[Steve Grosekemper]

Reminder for the memory impaired Dan Andrews:

He beat me once, he has and will beat you every time...

[gulf911]

correction,
Eric 'has not' beaten me. And in the words of Jerry Sienfeld...I choose not to run...