Thought for 996 bashers...

A place to hang out and discuss all things Porsche.

Postby Jad on Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:42 pm

Arguably the most popular/watched racing in the world, certainly the US, is NASCAR. Pushrod, carborated V8's - is this the technology of the future? Well, maybe for the next Taurus or SUV :) , but not for anything useful.

I think a few years ago, reputations were built at the track, but even the mighty F1 is shooting down all the high tech in order to 'save money'. To me, the money being spent was being invested into those technologies for production cars, but now that nothing new is legal, they just spend more to build the same thing slightly lighter so they can bolt a lump of lead where they want in the car. Why not let BAR run the front differential, or let the wing bend to help both low and high speed aero. Traction control is almost standard in production cars, let them refine it at the track. Change the rules to allow useful development with the millions being spent, don't change the rules to tell everyone what to build. :(

Now lets go racing! Can't wait for the AX tomorrow. :D
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Postby David J Marguglio on Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:23 pm

Jad:

There are “glass half-empty” and “glass half-full” kind of people and you seem to be the “Sure I have a glass, but it has a chip in it and it looks like it wasn’t washed, and the water in it probably has some radical bacteria in it that will undoubtedly cause me to have explosive diarrhea” kind of guy. I mean hell boy, you are WAY too young to be so cynical. :shock:

Yes, F1 and more specifically the FIA, is currently looking into ways to reduce the cost of racing, but they are going at it from the angle of improving the show, not to stymie technology. It will still lead to further developments in technology. Look at tires. Within the last few years they limited the size and added grooves and the manufactures continue to turn out better and better compounds. Paddle shifting, traction control, ABS, lightweight materials - all current or former racing tech. This technology trickles down to us. These F1 engines are being asked to last a whole weekend and now possibly multiple weekends. Hooray! Anyone can build an engine to last a few minutes, (or seconds in the case of drag racing) but technology that will allow a F1 engine to run to 18,000+ rpm in race conditions for multiple weekends? Outstanding!

Even your hyper-cynical person such as yourself would have to admit that racing has spawned all of the performance technology that we enjoy today. :lol:
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Postby Curt on Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:32 pm

David,
I disagree with your placing Jad in the pessimist category. He still thinks his 944 has a chance against 31 year old 911's. How much more optimistic (coughdelusionalcough) can a person be? :lol:
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Postby Jad on Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:34 pm

Sorry, not trying to be cynical and if you know me, I am not. I just try to look at the glass both as half full, meaning there is a lot to be enjoyed, thus liking the 996 for what it does offer, and looking at the fact the glass is no longer full and wondering why and what can be done before it is too late. Porsches answer of the 996 street car that can handle limited track use, and the GT3 which is a track car, that can handle limited street use, seems like a great answer. Neither car is perfect, but both accomplish their main purpose quite well. Those that complain they are not perfect at everything are the cynical ones. No one else needs a dry sump street car, so why does that make the 996 trash despite being faster, smoother, cheaper, more efficient, safer, etc? The hips? This coming from a pumkin driver?

I also don't like the, for lack of better term, the quick all encompassing answer. Their is no perfect car, racing will not cure all of Porsche future problems, the Cayenne was not the dumbest thing Porsche has ever done (nor was the 944 Curt and Dan :? ) etc. The easy answer is usually very short sighted and wrong, yet very easy for the bandwagon of uniformed to jump on and complain wildly. I 100% believe Porsche was better served by getting paid to build the Tourag and basically getting the Cayenne for free, than they would have been winning LeMans again or any other race. More fun for us the watch LeMans, but from a business prospective.....We will never know for sure, but look at the attention Porsche has gotten for 2-3 years with the Cayenne, far more I think than Audi got with their dominating car. Bentley won last year and they are not exactly making the best seller list any time soon.

I consider myself a painfully centered person. F1 has traditionally been the benchmark for development as you noted. But do we need 900 hp motors with custom blended fuel of an exact size, # of cylinders etc that they are going to, or might the technology be better serving if they could use any engine design they wanted, but only got 20 gallons of gas or something. Seems to me, if F1 wants to be a technological show case, maybe regulating driver safety is all they should require. Let them run diesels, turbos, electric and really develop new and better technology. The gain slight nuggets from the current engines and the ridiculous amount spent in the wind tunnel, but VERY little that will likely ever see road car production any more. Traction control, ABS, etc have all been outlawed so I am seeing the great glass emptying really quickly especially if tobacco money leaves which is quite likely. They need to work on the glass before they end up like CART. I think that is a fair evaluation and they know something has to be done as the current state is not sustainable long term.

If there is a clear and obvious answer, usually you don't understand the problem. :?

Enough (too much) talk, lets RACE! Though no one else seems to be running in KS :cry:
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Postby gulf911 on Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:37 pm

zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ..............
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Postby Curt on Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:41 pm

Come on now Dan, you are mean.

I would like to ask Jad though, what type of uniform are we supposed to wear on the bandwagon? Don't you just hate people who bust you for spelling? :D :wink:
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Postby gulf911 on Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:52 pm

Yipes! All this talk and I'm not even showing up tomorrow.... :oops:

Saving my tires for the DE ya know....

Sorry Jad, you showing up for the DE next month?
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Postby jacob on Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:00 pm

come on. I cant believe you guys argue and bash any porsche. It is one thing for a moron with a honda to bash a porsche (a pure jealousy factor) but a fellow porsche owner bashing another porsche??????? You must be stupid. I havent driven every porsche out their seeing I am only 17 but I have driven my share, and yes some seem to have their advantages, but they all are STILL a finely crafted machine that is fare superior to anything else. YOu know something is wrong when a kid tells you this sound childish. Yes I favor 911's but my life will not be complete until I own nearly every model porsche ever made including a 996, and at my age I still have a long ways to go. You guys sound like an interesting bunch and I cant wait tell my 18th birthday to sign up and join you guys. thanks
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Postby MikeD on Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:35 pm

Well Jad, I respectfully disagree with your "insight".

Do you really think that racing is the "easy" route for a auto manufacturer? The "simple", "short sighted" answer to keep Porsche afloat? I'm not all that involved with inner workings at Porsche but I strongly suspect you are wrong here. I don't know what to say here, except if you really believe that you need to get out (to the races) more.

Racing sustained Porsche development and sales for almost 50 years, was that "short sighted"? Racing made Porsche the brand it is today. You probably wouldn't own any of the Porsche's you do (or have owned) had it not been for Porsche's racing. I don't think any of us would. Racing IS Porsche and it is a shame that they lost sight of that.

I think developing an SUV for the mass-market in the US is far more "simple", "short sighted", and "easy". How long is the SUV fad going to last? What happens when it's over? Does Porsche develop an Estate? Or Saloon? (actually, I think they would have been far better served to develop one of those over an SUV, but that's my opinion).

If you think I am a "bandwagon jumper" because I want Porsche to get back into racing, then so be it. I can live with that title. Although, I'm not sure how that is the case. I think it's more like a small voice in the wilderness crying out "Go Racing! Go Racing!" which will be ignore by the general public as very few people that buy modern Porsche's really care.

BTW, NASCAR is the number one sport in the US ONLY! F1 is the number one Motorsport in the world. Which includes the US so if you think about it there are enough people in the rest of the world that watch F1 to carry all those lamo's that watch NASCAR here in the US.

I don't know the rules for F1 now, and I wont know them for next year. But even if they were to become a "spec" series it would still benefit the manufacturers. If they want to be competitive, it has to. They have no choice but to be inspired and think creatively to get (or keep) a leg up on the competition. I'm not even sure how we go to F1 in the first place as Porsche will probably not go into F1 (although it would be cool to see them get back into CART, but as that series is dying I doubt that'll happen).

Sports car racing (Le Mans, ALMS, Grand AM, etc) does have a direct effect on the manufacturer. Again, let me cite Dave Maraj (owner Champion Racing), he said that the R8 (ALMS, Le Mans) build brand recognition, whereas the RS6 (Speed GT) brings in the customers.

Anyway, there's probably more I could write but we're obviously putting Dan to sleep...

DAN!! WAKE UP!! YOU NEED TO REST SO YOU CAN RACE TOMORROW!!!
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Postby gulf911 on Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:08 pm

Man, that woke me up...nicely put Mike.

"No one else needs a dry sump street car, "

How many other $70k cars do you know that can't go fast in a corner without starving the engine for oil? Apparently the GT3 needs it... :shock:

If Porsche's main purpose was to build a Japanese car for the masses then they hit their mark with the 996. :shock:
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Postby Jad on Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:48 pm

Porsche needs to stick with racing to support the brand and maintain the image, but winning Lemans is not enough to keep the small company going. A strong 911 series like the Carrera Cup is great marketing, but not enough. They need racing, Cayennes, smartly built 996's and other smart business to continue. Over building street cars to be able to run in enduro's may sell 1 or 2 more, but at the $100K price, if the GT3 were the base 911, do you think they could sell enough to be profitable?

I am very pro Porsche and think they are being very good business people, though I don't have Bob's engineering knowledge or Curts knowledge of young boys hips and blind squirrels or even Dan inability to stay awake, I agree with Jason, Porsche makes great cars and has for a long time. The advantages of a dry sump over what is in the 996 are very minor and only occur under severe race conditions. Buy the GT3 racecar and leave $30k off the MSRP for the street version.

By the way, which other cars can I buy for less that perform better than my 996? When I looked, the M3, Corvette, 350Z and Ferrari seemed the main competitors with the 996 clearly winning any long track battle, wet sump and all. Plus, the only reason I sold the Boxster was the back seat, so M3 or 996? My X5 has not won me over with confidence in the reliability, very nice car, but not built like a Porsche (inclusive of all Porsches).

No DE's for me, just AX and Pahrump, so we can keep the trash talk going strong once we get over the Porsche bashing :lol:
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Postby Curt on Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:20 pm

Jad wrote: or Curts knowledge of young boys hips and blind squirrels or even Dan inability to stay awake, I agree with Jason, Porsche makes great cars and has for a long time.
No DE's for me, just AX and Pahrump, so we can keep the trash talk going strong once we get over the Porsche bashing :lol:


So now Jad agrees with "Jason". Jason? Who exactly is Jason? Now Jad is having to make up imaginary friends to find someone who agrees with him? :lol:

Jad, by the way, very freaking funny on the comment on my knowledge of young boys hips. I'll give you one point for that. I'm laughing my butt off about that one, but..... you have to admit it was a pretty good example for someone saying there wasn't a difference in the "width of the hips" of the new 997 vs. the 996. I think it was a PERFECT illustration of my point!

Jacob, chill dude. Calling us stupid and childish is just that, especially when you don't have the history with us to recognize that this is all in fun and has been going on since before they :!: :!: dropped. Know what I mean? You would be hard pressed to find a better instructor than Dan or Jad when you join. Oops, did I say Jad. First I acknowledge that a Boxster is cool, than I compliment Jad. And rest assured Jake that you can only hope that you will be this fun loving and immature when you are 93 years old like Dan.

I can't tell you how sold I am on my M3 and its reliability and build quality. 51,000 miles and it's been gas and oil only literally. It's built like a brick shiphouse and I am now a huge fan. I've heard that X5's are a bit problematic, but aren't those made in South Carolina by guys named Skeeter whose wife and sister look exactly alike and are never seen at the same parties? :shock:

Jad, do the DE. The last DE was a blast and we were all really going at it. Tons of track time a foot off of each others bumpers. Or, you could do 273 autocrosses to try and get an equal amount of track time. :)
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Postby gulf911 on Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:24 pm

"And rest assured Jake that you can only hope that you will be this fun loving and immature when you are 93 years old like Dan. "

Yeah, but I don't look a day over 92... :lol:

Hey Jad, It really was a blast last DE you really should try to make it. It would be great to have you out there with us. Besides how can you resist trying to put the spank on us loud mouths? :lol: Hey Youngster (Jake) , we're just giving Jad a hard time, and he gives as good as he gets... :wink:
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M3 bashing time ;^)

Postby Chris Huck on Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:28 pm

I usually just "lurk" when everyone else is having all the real fun on the forum but I really feel I need to chime in now -

While I am also a proud owner of an exciting ACS 2001 M3 manual tranny COUPE (glass is half full Jad!) I have to admit it's on it's second engine with the 100k warranty to prove it, has been very reliable, but still in the shop 3 times for side window seals, 1 stereo replace, and TWO VALVE ADJUSTMENTS! At 30k it was covered under warranty, but just last month the dealer quoted $1100 on a car with self adjusting hydraulic valves, but due to failures they insist on an adjustment every 30K miles!!

Thank gosh for John at Black Forest for saving me hundreds of dollars over the BMW dealers' price! (This glass is ALSO half empty!)
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