New rules and HANS devices

[RickK]

The new rules for 2007 say that a HANS type device will be required for TT and DE events. Has there been any further thought as to which brands of devices or which certifications for devices will be required? What about the fact that drilling or gluing the device mounts to a helmet will void the Snell rating on that helmet. Some of these devices (HANS brand specifically) require very specific seat, roll/harness bar and harness belt setups in order to function properly. Will tech. inspection be required to look at these? These changes can be costly and time consuming for drivers to implement so there should be as much time given as possible before the start of the 2007 season. Using a HANS may cost drivers some siginificant money to make the required modifications but then ISAAC is not SFI approved.

If we can clarify these issues maybe someone could put together a group buy for a specific device. Currently, HANS, Hutch II, and R3 are the only SFI approved devices. Others available are the ISAAC (two models) and G-Force SRS-1.

[JamesWilson]

Sounds like a topic for a future Tech Session, as Dave Turner Motorsports is now the only authorized HANS distributor in San Diego.

In short, a helmet technically cannot be modified in its shell or lining and retain an original Snell, SFI, BSA, or FIA approval. HANS allows for specific instructions for installing its required buttons into the shell of a specific helmet. To curtail this, many new manufacturers for a fee will install HANS buttons into helmets and stick a "factory-installed" sticker on the outside, which is supposed to meet both the helmet manufacturer's guidelines and the certification for the device. This also holds true for authorized distributors who have completed factory training.

While certain new helmets are advertised with flat plates (Sparco WTT, Suaymi, certain Arai, some high-end Bell), as long as the helmet is Snell SA, BSA, or FIA approved then a traditional HANS device may be used. Snell M-rated or DOT motorcycle helmets do not conform to these shell strength requirements.

A HANS device is best used with newer-style belts, as most manufacturers have adjusted their build quality to meet HANS compatability requirements...soften up the belt material, change hardware locations, and as of 2006 many have incorporated the Camlock unit permanently mounted within the 5th or 6th point "anti-submarine" belts to guarantee their proper usage. Only Camlock-style belts are approved for use. Approved belts may NOT be used with a factory Porsche seat, as the shoulder harnesses are NOT properly placed and the anti-submarine straps extend too far forward to be utilized properly in the event of a crash (true of non-HANS users as well).

Most new FIA approved seats, when properly mounted, will work in conjunction with a HANS device. Certain models are reinforced in the shoulder harness slot areas (Cobra seats) for extra immobilization, and slot height versus the driver's trunk/body length do play a role in a proper seating position. Some seats like the Cobra Evolution, Recaro SPG, Sparco Circuit, and Sabelt's Indianapolis have "halos" or "wings" to prevent further movement of the driver's head in the event of a crash in a lateral direction. Also, a NASCAR-style "cage net" may be used bisecting the passenger and driver's areas (right side of the driver).

This is all off the top of my head, I will have to confirm a few facts and make sure this is all good information. If in doubt, consult your helmet manufacturer and/or HANS.

Chime in also, guys who currently have a HANS device or shops that have a history of using them and installing the appropriate gear in the cars.

-JamesW

[993Panzer]

I purchased a HANS device last year up in Rodondo Beach. I had their HANS certified technician install the mounts to the helmet. They also spent some time helping me get used to putting the device on and off as well as making sure the fit was correct. I have Sparco 6 point belts with EVO2 seats and everything lines up well. My shoulder harness is mounted to my DAS rollbar and is just the right height to meet the requirements set by HANS for proper shoulder belt placement. I was comfortable with the HANS device after one TT session and soon learned how to work within the limited head motion left to right. I feel it's very safe and worth the expense, but then again I'm co safety chair.

[Steve Grosekemper]

The new rules for 2007 say that a HANS type device will be required for TT and DE events. Has there been any further thought as to which brands of devices or which certifications for devices will be required? What about the fact that drilling or gluing the device mounts to a helmet will void the Snell rating on that helmet. Some of these devices (HANS brand specifically) require very specific seat, roll/harness bar and harness belt setups in order to function properly. Will tech. inspection be required to look at these? These changes can be costly and time consuming for drivers to implement so there should be as much time given as possible before the start of the 2007 season. Using a HANS may cost drivers some significant money to make the required modifications but then ISAAC is not SFI approved.

If we can clarify these issues maybe someone could put together a group buy for a specific device. Currently, HANS, Hutch II, and R3 are the only SFI approved devices. Others available are the ISAAC (two models) and G-Force SRS-1.

Rick,
The short answer here is no. There are numerous issues concerning the H&N device ruling that were overlooked, and that is one of the reasons why I was opposed to this ruling.
H&N devices are a very new and evolving item that I don't think PCA Z-8 should be mandating them when PCA club racing does not even mandate their use.
The decision to include this ruling for 2007 is not locked in. If you (Club members) don't want this rule in 2007, you can make your feelings known when the rules process open back up later this year.

There are so many issues of concern when the rule actually comes into enforcement.
*harness requirement
*seat requirement
*roll over protection
*helmet attachment requirement
*SFI - FIA approval

I think we should specify specific rules for H&N restraints for 2007 and encourage their use but not mandate them.

Whatever you think, you should make your feelings known to the Zone 8 rules committee

[993Panzer]

I have to agree with Steve. I feel that the H&N deveices are a great safety item but I don't fell they should mandatory, especially for TT and DE events. I don't believe a first timer should have to shell out big bucks to find out if they even like TT or DE events. But for those of us that already know it's what we want to do we should spring for the extra safety equipment. I know there was a huge thread on this already so I'll let it go there. I'd recommend it for those doing TT and DE events regularly but not to make it mandatory.

[RickK]

This is exactly why I brought this up here. The timing of rules like this is critical. I'm sure there are many people out there who were thinking about replacing an older helmet now that the SA2005s are out, but now we have to take into account H&N device tether mounts as well. Also not considered is how does this rule effect the "equal restraints for driver and passenger". With the intricate specifics of the setup required for HANS it won't work in just any students car an instructor jumps into.

I know that the answer is posted in other places, but, when does the rule commenting process open back up again?

[Steve Grosekemper]

This is exactly why I brought this up here. The timing of rules like this is critical. I'm sure there are many people out there who were thinking about replacing an older helmet now that the SA2005s are out, but now we have to take into account H&N device tether mounts as well. Also not considered is how does this rule effect the "equal restraints for driver and passenger". With the intricate specifics of the setup required for HANS it won't work in just any students car an instructor jumps into.

I know that the answer is posted in other places, but, when does the rule commenting process open back up again?

The open proposal period for 2007 will begin on March 1, 2006.
http://www.pca.org/zone8/rules_discussi ... sPage1.htm

Start your research now and make an intelligent well informed proposal to the committee. Dazzle them with brilliance.

[CoryM]

James-

Is there any chance of Dave Turner's doing a group buy discount on the HANS? OG Racing did this last year (I think it was $100 off)and I believe they got a really good response because they plan to to it again sometime in 2006. You could probably set up a minimum order and extend the discount to all of Zone 8 and the POC too to get enough buyers. Have the buyers put down a deposit and when enough people have commited place the order. You'd probably wind up selling a lot of HANS specific belts and seats as a bonus. This could be done in conjunction with a head and neck restraint tech session.

[JamesWilson]

A group buy is not necessary, as I am a Master Distributor of the product line and buy direct from the manufacturer, there is no greater deal than that

I am contractually bound to sell the product at a price set by the manufacturer, but if internally some PCA guys want to go in on several units, we *may* be able to offer a discounted pricing plan. Nothing set in stone, as we still have to meet our contractual obligations.

HANS devices will be in-stock in all popular sizes and models in the coming weeks, as will replacement hardware and installation services.

-JW

[RickK]

I am contractually bound to sell the product at a price set by the manufacturer, .....Nothing set in stone, as we still have to meet our contractual obligations.
-JW

I'm not a lawyer but this sure sounds like price fixing to me, which is illegal. Contractualkly obligated to sell at a set price.....does not promote healthy competition in the market between resellers and does a disservice to consumers. Hmmmm.

[JamesWilson]

You are incorrect. Lengthy contracts exist between all manufacturers and their authorized dealers and distributors to maintain the "value" of a given product and still promote healthy competition. MAP (minimum advertised pricing) policies differ than what's in the store as a walk-in retail or club price, but we are all bound by certain rules. The places you see online and in some magazines that advertise below such are breaking such agreements, and are subsequently quickly either shut down by the manufacturer, or cut off of their supply.

Whether you as an end consumer like that arrangement or not, that is the way it goes with nearly every company we distribute for, all we can do is play by the same rules as everyone else and nobody gets hurt

The current authorized retail and advertising price of the economy model of the HANS device is set at $865.00, which is why you will never see it advertised below that.

[Richard Plotkin]

The POC recently did a group buy and received a 10% discount.

-R

[JamesWilson]

The POC recently did a group buy and received a 10% discount.

Noted. Occasionally manufacturers will allow certain "group buys", mostly just within clubs like POC/PCA/BMWCCA, and will authorize such. It's completely up to them. I am more than happy to work with everyone on something, as long as it does not jeopardize my account.

-JW

[rtp356]

There seems to be a lot of misinformation being spread about the new H&N restraint rule. I would like to address a few of the issues and hope that the members of the zone will take the time to understand the rule and it's impact before reacting.

The rule only applies to licensed TT participants. That means that those who are new to TT's will not have to utilize a H&N system

The rule only applies to the driver's side not to the passenger

The rule does not apply to DE events

The rule does not require a HANS device. It does require a H&N device of which HANS is one brand. There are at least 3 others available, the least expensive is around $250.

Most if not all members should be able to comply with this rule without having to buy any other additional items.

This rule was adopted by the rules committee and passed by a vote of the Region Presidents out of a concern for the safety of our members. It was our hope that the members of the region would also be interested in their safety. Our Zone has shown a long history of leading the way when it comes to safety and this rule is staying with that tradition. We see no reason to wait for other regions or national to adopt such a rule before our Zone does.

The rule allows each member to research the options available and decide what will work best for them and fit in his/her budget.

I guess I am wondering why anyone would disparage a rule that requires the use of a proven safety device. I do not claim to know how effective the various devices are, but if I lost control of my car and was headed for a wall I sure would be glad to have something to protect my neck - the only part of our body that current rules do not protect.
Richard Price
Rules Chair

[JamesWilson]

I don't think that anyone is *really* balking at the idea of having to use a H&N restrain device, I think that it's just another expense that they know they'll need-- not because it's required/suggested, but because they know it's a darn good idea and most people like themselves and their families enough to want to save their own neck.

The problem with the host of the "cheaper" H&N restrain device is that they have proven to be not nearly as effective as the HANS device, which leads back to the paragraph above-- "If I really could afford a HANS or R3 device, then I'll do it--I can't afford NOT to." Teamtech, Simpson, G-Force SRS, Hutchen, and other devices do not nearly meet heavy and secondary impact ratings as the HANS, and none of them have the FIA and SFI certification to back it up (HANS, ISAACS, and R3 are the only ones I believe that have current certifications).

I still have to buy safety gear just like everyone else, and the reason that I myself have held off of doing heavy track days and TT-like events is because I want to get all of the proper gear first. I still have to pay $865 for a HANS just like everyone else, and I'm saving for one...as well as a proper seat and harness to make it all work together.

-JW