What do you think of this alternative TT format???

[Mike]

Open for discussion is it , , or ...
I've never done an event like this, anyone, is it fun??
Check out this NCRC TT format, something different …

http://www.ncracing.org/tt/news.html#20041008

2004 Time Trial Challenge Series - Final Event Format

At this year's ThunderFest in December we have come up with an exciting alternative for all the Time Trialers, Advanced, and Intermediate drivers out there. We will be having a "Time Trial Race" in place of the normal Time Trial!! It's kind of like bracket racing but on a road course instead of a drag strip. The basic idea is that a driver posts a lap time to Kristi which she'll multiply by 10 laps. For example, if you post a 2:15 you'll have no less than 22 minutes and 30 seconds to do 10 laps. The driver who completes 10 laps closest to their posted time without crossing the line too early wins!

To add even more of a challenge we'll be sending cars out from slowest to fastest doing our best to space them out based on their cumulative 10 lap time. So, if the driver that posted a 2:15 should complete 10 laps in 22:30 a driver that posts a 2:10 should complete 10 laps in 21:40. So we'll send the driver that guessed a 2:10 out 50 seconds AFTER the driver that guessed a 2:15. If everyone stays close to there posted time then the whole field will be coming to the finish line at the same time making for a terrific finish!

The kicker to this whole event is that no in car timers of any kind can be used and you can bet we'll be checking. So get ready to pull that 9 volt out of your Hot Lap and put in some hot laps. We look forward to a big turn out and an exciting and fun event. If you have any questions do not hesitate to ask Kristi. A quick look at the rules follows. More information and a full list of rules will be posted in the near future.

1. Drivers post their average laptime. If you do not post a time before the published date and time you will not be allowed to run.

2. Pre-grid will be open for 10 minutes and then released to the hot pits. Drivers will be PRE gridded slowest to fastest. If you are late to Pre-Grid you will be sent out last regardless of your posted time.

3. Race consists of 10 laps.

4. Open passing

5. Race is timed using AMB transponders. If you use your own transponder and it doesn't work for whatever reason or works intermittently you will be disqualified.

6. The winner of the race will be the driver that comes closest to his/her posted time (X 10 laps) without going faster than his/her posted time.

7. Finishing the race faster than your posted time will result in disqualification.

8. No timing equipment of any kind will be allowed in the car. Hot lap timers must be off and the battery removed. There shall not be a Hot Lap beacon on the track at all. Other systems shall be taped up and no other beacons allowed on the track. Any clocks or watches in the car shall be removed or covered.

9. No pit boards for crew members are allowed. Only hand signals are allowed. Crew members signaling drivers will be confined to a certain area of the track for safety and so we can keep an eye out for cheaters.

10. Drivers shall not use their brakes on any straight outside of what is deemed a reasonable braking area or when avoiding a dangerous situation. Drivers must cross the finish line at a reasonable speed or they will be disqualified.

11. No in car radios or communications of any kind are allowed.

12. No passengers allowed.

13. The organizers have the right to disqualify any driver and car at any time for violating the spirit of these rules. Conduct of the crew will be considered in this judgment as well.

14. The driver will be on the clock as they pass over the AMB triggering line between pit exit and turn one as they exit the pits for the first time.

15. If the session is shortened due to black or red flag conditions the results will be based on the lowest common number of laps that the entire field has competed.

16. All flags must be obeyed as per normal track procedures. The passing flag must be obeyed during this session.

17. No allowances will be made for local yellows or slippery surfaces. You must consider these factors when you post your time.

[MikeD]

Sounds like it would be fun once or twice, but...

4. Open passing

I think this precludes this from happening at a PCA event, unless it's run under club race rules with club race licensed drivers.

7. Finishing the race faster than your posted time will result in disqualification.

This kind of sucks, if you ask me. I should get bonus points for being able to go faster in traffic than my average time.

10. Drivers shall not use their brakes on any straight outside of what is deemed a reasonable braking area or when avoiding a dangerous situation. Drivers must cross the finish line at a reasonable speed or they will be disqualified.

What consititues a "reasonable" speed? If I miss a shift, or don't get off the corner correctly do I risk getting DQed? If I haven't been timing myself how the heck am I going to know I need to drop my speed so drastically, so if I'm going slow down the straight there's a reason for it.

17. No allowances will be made for local yellows or slippery surfaces. You must consider these factors when you post your time.

What the?!?! Sounds to me like lazy organization, NOT just adding "spirit of competition" to the race.

Personally, I'd rather do the Austrialian Start, or whatever you call it, when you start slowest to fastest and delay the start so that all cars finish at the same time. Same idea here, but at least it's in race format and not a bunch of additional complexity about who wins and how they win. Cross the finish line first (fastest) after 15 laps and you win.

[ttweed]

I don't see that format as a "time trial" format in the sense that we have used it in Zone 8. It could be a "fun race" for the Club Racing people, but with open passing, I would not be interested in entering such an event. If TT-licensed drivers were allowed to enter without the benefit of a race school to teach them how to co-exist with other cars on the track, the risk of incidents would be pretty high, IMHO. I'm surprised they can insure such an event.

TT

[kary]

I would rather see something like we did at the Speedway last year where the time trail was an entire session. That was very fun and provided some fun strategy with other cars out there in a safe environment. I would like to see us do more of that on tracks that can handle it.

At Pahrump we talked about having the ability to post your fastest time at any point throughout the weekend. This brings in a lot of strategy regarding time of day, tires, traffic, etc. It also provides some more drama throughout the weekend as to who has the top times in their classes and overall. Some real mind games can be played with your opponent throughout the weekend.

Anyone up for this idea?

[Steve Grosekemper]

While interesting this is not a TT format at all. It sounds like a insurance nightmare as these safety rules are completely in contrast to what we have always stressed.

When I go to a TT it is to learn the track and turn the best possible time, not try to match a number.

I did not like Fontana style of timing either. Too many issues with traffic. A group of similarly matched cars will just have a battle in traffic, while great fun in practice not what I want in timing.

I would not be interested in running and event like this.

If it ain't broke...

[kary]

Hey, Steve, you might consider what I suggested since traffic might make you more competitive holding up the faster cars that are now beating you

BTW, I am not sure what traffic you were running in a Caifornia Speedway. I ran 6 laps without seeing anyone and on the others 3 laps I passed 4 cars without any effect on my times.

[Steve Grosekemper]

Kary,

The same problem I always have, my car is very fast in corners and very slow in the straights. So I can't get around anyone in a straght unless they completely lift. If I go off and on I will catch most cars in the tight stuff again (infield of Fontana) and start this cycle all over again. It is even worse for Ralph as he runs in the next slower class.

[Dan Chambers]

Kary,

The same problem I always have, my car is very fast in corners and very slow in the straights. So I can't get around anyone in a straght unless they completely lift. If I go off and on I will catch most cars in the tight stuff again (infield of Fontana) and start this cycle all over again. .

Boy, can I relate! Martha M., Jerry Mize, Bob McLaughlin and I went through this cycle of "pass-em, pass me" at Fontana all weekend long last spring.... especially with those Blasted BMW's. (Can't Bimmers corner?)

Regarding timed runs at Fontana, I'm not sure I'd do another TT without separation during timed laps. I'd rather focus on the track and the line, than be thinking of new explitives while "waiting" behind non-Porsches in the corners.

Just my ranting.......

[Mike]

Putting the responsibility for a clean lap on the driver is common in race qualifying too. You have to make a decision (sometimes in the middle of the session) to provide your self the best lap possible. I rather like the challenge. I try to get to pre grid early and get a clean lap quickly. But in a 25 minute session I've had slower cars hold me up/want to race so I've dropped back a straight away and made the interval I need.
Other positives for the single session timing format, it can provide for an extra practice session on the very expensive big track, you can improve your time by drafting on the long straight, better prepares drivers progressing to club racing.
That is the PCA philosophy; organize events to help PCA drivers learn and progress to Club racing. It worked for me.

Dan, it's same kind of adjustment we all make when at the Q regarding for example the swale....
I was reminded of your reply to Jads AX comments….

"So, the idea was to get you thinking about the next couple of turns and surfaces ahead. Huh, a thinking man's track .... go figure!"
http://web2.pcasdr.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=804&highlight=#804

OK, I owe you a beer after the next Q event for that one.

[MikeD]

Hey Mike,

I am not apposed to single session timed runs similar to what we did at Cal Speedway earlier this year. I am also not apposed to the idea presented here. I just don't really like the rules the NCRC came up with. Plus I think it would be difficult to call this a TT. An interesting format for a race sure, but it's not really a TT.

[Mike]

Hey Mike,

I am not apposed to single session timed runs similar to what we did at Cal Speedway earlier this year. I am also not apposed to the idea presented here. I just don't really like the rules the NCRC came up with. Plus I think it would be difficult to call this a TT. An interesting format for a race sure, but it's not really a TT.

I agree Mike, I brought up the NCRC format as I thought it was quite different.
You would think a race license would be required?
It sounds somewhat similar to that reverse order race Jim Copp wrote about in his Brainard WW article.
I just posted it, not promoting it.

[Greg Phillips]

They had a smiliar event at the Fort Worth Parade Club races. They took your best lap, not sure if from qualifying or best lap at any time and then used that to do the starting times, slow cars starting first and then the faster cars by thier best laps. And if everyone was able to consistently run their best laps they would all finish at the same time.
It made for a fun concept as it gave the slow cars a lot of time on the top of the scoring charts
But it was not as complicated as the rules for the event Mike had found. I think having earlier races and qualifying led to fairly accurate times and less problems with people having artifically slow times to game the system and need the extra rules for not going slow and needng bracket race rules structure.
Also having this event for people with open passing for time trialers is asking for problems
Greg