Warning to Porsche buyers...warranty issue and PCNA

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Postby Kim Crosser on Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:54 am

Sean wrote:
So basically, the PCNA rep explained that the somking is due to an indadequate lubrication system for hard cornering , and the type 2 overrev is their way of "not fixing it".


That seems to be quite a stretch. A type 2 overrev has no relation to hard cornering or smoking.

Porsche makes race cars and Porsche makes street cars. Why should a street car be assumed to be identical to a race car? They sure don't cost as much (and they are considerably more affordable than Ferraris).

From reading forums comparing AX events in different regions, it sounds like we in SDR run the largest, fastest, most demanding courses. Many regions seem to run AXs where the top speed might be 45 MPH, whereas our AXs are almost Time Trials without the passing, and some cars are nudging triple digit speeds. So, when we talk about "parking lot AX" events, these may be a lot more stressful than an AX in some of the other regions.

Throw on a set of sticky and/or larger tires (non-Porsche approved), and now you are regularly putting the cars into cornering stresses well beyond anything they would encounter on the streets (or were designed for). Not long ago, tire limitations would have prevented some of those stresses (i.e., you would slide long before the oil was pooling in the cylinders), but now we can get street tires that are holding the road at much higher speeds and cornering forces.

Robert - your post was the first time I have seen an "I was there" statement regarding PCNA (or a dealer) claiming the warranty didn't apply due to "racing". Every other story always began "I heard..." or "Did you hear...". Unfortunately, without some details, none of us can judge whether PCNA or the owner was in the right (or somewhere in between).

Some key questions (I would hope most of these could be answered without violating whatever confidentiality agreement you might be under):
What kind of hearing was this?
What was the warranty problem being claimed?
Was the car driven with Porsche-approved wheels/tires?
Had there been any suspension or other modifications to the car for track use?
Was the car driven only in AX events, or was it also used in DE/TT or other track events?
Did the DME show a large number (say - over 1000) of Zone 2 over-revs?

I doubt whether PCNA is behaving in bad faith - there are enough verifiable cases of local dealers performing warranty repairs on cars that were obviously tracked. Therefore, I suspect there is something more to this particular story.
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Postby sean996 on Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:18 am

Kim Crosser wrote:Sean wrote:
So basically, the PCNA rep explained that the somking is due to an indadequate lubrication system for hard cornering , and the type 2 overrev is their way of "not fixing it".


That seems to be quite a stretch. A type 2 overrev has no relation to hard cornering or smoking.



Kim . . . it was an arbitration hearing and the reason it came to this is my car has belched smokes on restart at home, while out for dinner, and at EVERY autoX I have ever attended . . . including the very first which an attorney from the club remembers . . .

Also, you have been within 1/2 second of my times . . . your car doesn't smoke like mine on restart . . . it just can't be normal . .. right?????

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Postby bryanearll on Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:38 am

I think at one point Steve G. said that sometimes smoking comes from the oil seperator.
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Postby Kim Crosser on Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:44 am

Actually, my Boxster does occasionally belch white smoke, and has ever since it was new. It seems worst when I start it, move it a little, shut it off, then later start, move, stop (e.g., when washing on the weekend). When I later start it, I can get a pretty large cloud of white smoke. It seems like a very short run between a start and stop allows oil to pool in the cylinders more than usual.

After any "normal" driving, I usually don't get smoke when starting.

You are right that it shouldn't do it all the time. Is there scoring on the cylinder walls or valves and are they claiming this is from the over-revs?
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Postby ben, lj on Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:47 am

rss996 wrote:Mike, I believe you that Pioneer has been good to you and your friends. I am sure they will be good to me if my 997 goes kaput.........

PCNA has to know of his racing at club events from the dealer. I know it for a fact. I am sure that they would not come up with all this evidence if it were not for a number of conspiring minds working together.

I have heard of this before around the country and the same evidence has been brought to court etc by PCNA to show and claim abuse.

If you don't believe me then thats you own affair, but I sat there in the meeting and saw them do this to a customer with my own 2 eyes!

Tweed said it correctly, Porsche racing died in 1999......

Another thing, I think if you take PCNA to arbitration and or are a thorn in their side they will go to any length to push their weight around. If you bury your head in the sand and put up with RMS failure and white smoke then they will be more than happy to appease you as a customer.


I wonder if your friend's atty inquired about these cars (note how interesting the web-site as relates Porsche links, etc):

http://www.porschedriving.com/the_cars.asp

which are driven hard on the track from the day the are put in service (adherence to break in would also be interesting given the pre-break in mileage on the ones I drove while attending), and then sold through Pcar dealers (right here in S. Cal) with full warranties remaining. That sure seems a bit disingenuous since the implication is that driving a 911 in a DE (much less all out track duty every mile of it's life) is somehow harder on the car and therefore reduces the life expectancy of some of it's parts (heck, the manuals even have specific language with regards to tracking them and warranty claims). I wonder if the subsequent buyer who buys from the buyer who bought from the Pcar dealer immediately after being thrashed (er: tracked hard from the day it was born) is frauded by the reduced life expectancy?

All the literature for the classes is very Porsche like including liberal use of all logos, etc which we know Porsche would sue anyone over if not licensed. That licensing (or the lack thereof) along with Porsche's approval of that use together with all the other things Porsche (from Porsche itself) on the PDE website would leave PCNA and PAG (unsuccessfully) squirming to extricate themselves from the relationship and subsequent actions with repect to these cars being peddled through their own dealer network no less. Anyway, I'm sure a little discovery and a creative lawyering on this subject would make Porsche a little more amiable about standing behind their products in cases such as your friends.
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Postby David J Marguglio on Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:44 pm

Sean: just so we are clear...a small amount of smoke on start up that goes away quickly is normal and is part of the charm of a boxer engine. What you have is a mosquito fogger. Has anyone done a hot leak down test on your car?
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Postby rss996 on Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:49 pm

Fire extinguisher comes to mind.......... :lol:
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Postby rss996 on Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:54 pm

Kim,

Let me clear it up for you since Sean already stated where we were.

I sat there and watched Porsche reps pull out of a file all of Seans records from autocrosses and even final year end standing in the Witness...

They made it clear to the arbitrator that because of these activities and DME results they feel he abused the car and want to void his warranty...

Hope that is clear enough and you are able to say you have a confirmed report now!
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Postby sean996 on Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:58 pm

David J Marguglio wrote:Sean: just so we are clear...a small amount of smoke on start up that goes away quickly is normal and is part of the charm of a boxer engine. What you have is a mosquito fogger. Has anyone done a hot leak down test on your car?


No, I don't think so . . . if they did, they didn't share the results . . .
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Postby paul-silver on Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:35 pm

My 2002 BoxS also issues forth a small wuantity of smoke on start-up, sometimes. I've been told by multiple people that this is a normal occurrence with Boxsters after awhile. This does clear up quickly.

Belching forth large clouds of smoke is a different story, though.
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Porsche came thru for me and my engine

Postby jack miller on Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:14 am

Neither PCNA or Pioneer made any negative comments regarding my warranty claim for a new engine after my 996 erupted at the Q. The only question was whether it was still under warranty because it was so close to the 4-year deadline. Everyone at Pioneer knew the history of my car. Anyway, short story, 4 year old 996, brand new engine. Thanks Porsche, you did the right thing by me.
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Postby rss996 on Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:26 am

The issue here is trying to get it bought back, not a new engine...They are fighting the buy back...not denying the fact that it needs another RMS or new engine.

I am sure Pioneer and PCNA are more than accomodating re: RMS and new engines etc. When you try to get them to buyback then it looks to be another ball game!

Check out this thread from rennlist re: another buyback attempt on a new 997S...It is very interesting!

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/s ... p?t=170694
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Postby sean996 on Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:40 am

Actualy, it only got to the buy back stage because they won't replace the engine or do anything for the smoking, but they'd replace the engine if the RMS diamater was out of spec . . . otherwise just replace the seal and on my way . . . no addressing the smoking.

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Postby rss996 on Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:26 pm

I stand corrected....

Maybe you should try putting a patch (nicotine) on your car to stop it from smoking!
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Postby ben, lj on Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:42 pm

sean996 wrote:Actualy, it only got to the buy back stage because they won't replace the engine or do anything for the smoking, but they'd replace the engine if the RMS diamater was out of spec . . . otherwise just replace the seal and on my way . . . no addressing the smoking.

Sean


Are they denying the warranty claim for the RMS (a known defect dating back to the first Boxster and 99X rolled off the line all the way to the current ones many years later)? If so, it's obvious you're being forced to do what you're doing. If not, why not have the RMS replaced and have them see if the engine is out of spec for a possible replacement (which would take care of the smoking too)?
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