Fun Track Car

[bryanearll]

Porsche's "may" (will, though it's up to the dealer) void the warranty if you take a car to a track, DE or TT.

To me, it makes buying a new GT3 less of a value, or maybe you just say to yourself: I'll take responsibility for how I treat my car and I KNOW I'm voiding my warranty by tracking it. (This has been hashed over enough on the other thread.)

Now if I'm really wanting to DE, TT or Club Race it means that I should get another car.

SO.... Looking at older models of the 911 (preferred) and finding a good used car is a matter of understanding a bit of the expense in restoring and upgrading one.

I will use the pretty light blue 1982 911 SC in the classifieds for an example (though it looks pretty enough to 'just tinker with'):
1) 172,000 'careful' miles on the engine. Nice, but what does this motor cost to rebuild soup to nuts. How long did motor's last back then.
2) Model years. THE CAR that made me want to drive a Porsche was a 1972-1975 era 911 SC. I don't know enough of the history to be sure this is correct but I know how old I was. Of the 911 SC's what were the new development years? ie, 993 to 996 versions. Horsepower etc.
3) 993's are another option. Since we are NOT buying a warranty then getting a good deal is the key here. However, it doesn't seem like there is much depreciation in the vehicles. So, is there any value in the 993's vs. an earlier 1970's and early (when did the 993 start?) 80's vehicles.
4) If a vehicle can be purchased for $10-20,000, how much can you expect to spend in upgrading to prepared or modified class? I guessed an equivalent amount. Is that about correct?

Thanks,
Bryan

[rss996]

I think you have seen the light!

I now know that if you want to track a car you better buy an old one and set it up how you like it and repair it on your own if necessary...

Buy an RS America and have a blast! or a car like Tom Tweeds (fast little bugger aint it!)

Robert

[Pete Millikin]

This is a wide open question and I'm sure you will get lots of traffic on experience or preferences. I'll start with ideas to narrow the field.

The first thing is to decide what you ultimately want to do and buy or build to that class. Combination street/track car, dedicated track car, TT only or club race and with which group PCA, NASA, POC, etc.? All of these groups have class rules and the idea is to buy or build a competitive car. You want to avoid spending lots of money and end up at the back of the field which is less fun.

If you want to track a car it is always cheaper to buy someones project rather than build it. Dedicated race cars typically sell for 50% or less of the money the owners put into it.

If you choose to build, you can go mild to wild and the dollars accumulate fast. With your engine example, I think the basic rebuld on a SC or Carrera engine runs $5K. If you want a full on race motor it can easily go $10-15Kk depending on your choices.

As one benchmark, Lewis Wise is selling his 73 911 with an upgraded motor ( 3.2L ) and a very good suspension package for low 30s. This is a great combo street/track car.

[ttweed]

SO.... Looking at older models of the 911 (preferred) and finding a good used car is a matter of understanding a bit of the expense in restoring and upgrading one.

Bryan-
Let me give you the benefit of my experience and tell you that if this is the direction you are going, you would be far better off to decide what your goals for the car are and then go out and buy someone else's completed project already built for that venue. If your ultimate goal is to go Club racing, there are tons of already developed cars for sale at half the cost of building one. Look at this ad for a car in NJ: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208786 You couldn't build this car for $30K, but you can buy it for $16.5K (plus $1200 for shipping, since it is across the country, but there are plenty on the west coast, too).

Keep in mind that if you get a dedicated track car, you are going to need a trailer and tow vehicle. If you want to keep the car street legal and drive to the track, you are into a different class of car entirely, and will have to compromise performance for streetability.

I could go on about this all day, but to give you an outline, 911 development went like this:

'65-68 = short wheelbase cars, 2.0 liter
'69-73 = last of the light, LWB, non-impact bumper cars, 2.0-2.4 liter
'74-77 = 2.7 liter headache cars (best deals on used ones, but get rid of the motor and put in a 3.0 or larger)
'78-83 = 3.0 SC
'84-89 = 3.2 Carrera
'90-94 = 3.6 964
'95-98 = 3.6 993
'99-2004 = 996
2005 = 997

Major developments were that in '76, all unibodies started to be galvanized inside and out. With the 964, torsion bar suspension was abandoned for coil over and chassis totally redesigned (big difference.) With the 993, 5-link rear suspension was a big improvement. I think you know what happened with the 996 and on (dry sump abandoned, water-cooling, etc.) I think your best bet to build a car would be to buy a '74-77 roller and put a late model drivetrain in it.

You should talk to Bob Ehrman about his recent track car build to get an idea of the time and $$$ involved, or contact David Margulio about his current C2S build, or Mike Gagen about his '69 RSR+, or Jim Copp about his '76 track car build. You will either put a lot of sweat equity into it too, or if you aren't going to do the work, double the money. Labor ain't cheap. It may be that you will end up with exactly what you want by building it yourself, but buying an already complete car from someone moving up to a Cup car, etc., is a no-brainer in terms of time and $$$.

BTDT, and took the wrong route,
TT

[Jan Mellinger]

Randy Blaesi buys and sells lots of Porsches. He prefers the older 911's (69-73) due to their lighter bodies. The car that we both drive, the 1970 911E, has been upgraded and is still a work in progress. We bumped ourselves into FI by one point and are now adding more points. He knows his early 911s and would be a good one to talk to.

Jan Mellinger

[ttweed]

... or a car like Tom Tweeds (fast little bugger aint it!)

I am assuming that you are talking about my white '67S here. If so, I would only agree if your goal is to have a fun, streetable, autocross car. The short wheelbase, lack of aero aides, and inability to fit a tire larger than 205/50 makes it a poor choice for big track events, IMHO. Its provenance as the first 911S made by Porsche also makes it a poor choice for modifying to track specs (except possibly for vintage racing with VARA or HSR), and I have avoided any permanent changes from stock that will hurt its value.

My silver '73 911E is my big track car, and it came to me already modified, or I would have been hesitant to change it much either. Better to get a "T" or a '74-89 roller and build it up. The surviving early "S" and "E" cars are quite rare and special (if still in stock form), and should be preserved and not modified, in my opinion.

YMMV,
TT
ps to Jan M.-- once they are stripped to the tub and all the comfort and convenience items and heavy impact bumpers, soundproofing, undercoating, etc., are stripped out of them for a race car build, there is very little difference in the weight of the early 911s and the later ones, up to 1989, with the advent of the 964 chassis. If you are talking about keeping the car street legal, than yes, there can be a weight advantage to the earlier cars.

[Jad]

Or the Tim Comeau response, buy a 944 spec car. You could learn the race circuits, get your racing license, and really learn the classes, clubs and options with a total investment of under $10K. Then, once you know what YOU want in a racecar, sell the spec car (getting most of your investment back) and buy the fast expensive monster car if the spec series hasn't won you over.

Plus, a spec car will teach you have to drive properly, whereas buying a high HP car generally teaches you how to push the gas pedal hard on the straight - lots of fun which is the point of all this, but passing a 300+ hp car in a 147 hp car is quite a feel good moment as well.

Disclaimer - the opinion expressed is purely mine and probably wrong. Tim has no knowledge of this statement and may or may not agree and yes, old aircooled 911 are perfect in every way, have no problems and run forever with zero maintenance and may even still be covered by factory warranty, but since there has never been a mechanical breakdown, we will never know

[MikeD]

I don't want to discount Tom's advice, he is very wise and knowledgeable in this area, BUT....

If you are like I was about a year and a half ago, the "pick a club and class" advice doesn't do you much good. I didn't for me. I didn't KNOW which club or class I wanted to race in, or if I even wanted to race for that matter. I decided to bring my car up along with me as I progressed. That way if I had got to a point where I didn't want to be I could always go backwards with little trouble.

I understand your hesitancy to run a 996 or 997 for track duty and I don't really know enough to debate that issue. But the GT3 is a different car altogether. Different engine. Different transmission. Different suspension. You really should talk to John Payne, Joe Hegener, and others who track there GT3's to see what they think of their reliability before deciding not to go this way.


Just my $0.02

[MikeD]

Disclaimer - the opinion expressed is purely mine and probably wrong. Tim has no knowledge of this statement and may or may not agree and yes, old aircooled 911 are perfect in every way, have no problems and run forever with zero maintenance and may even still be covered by factory warranty, but since there has never been a mechanical breakdown, we will never know

The advice Jad gave is good though.

[Dan Chambers]

Bryan:

I have bounced back and forth about a 911 for years now. I think I started looking in 1988.

In my research I have found that one of the best all-around great Porsches for Street, Street/A-X/Big track, or modified for track is the '84 to '89 series 911 Carerra. Second choice would be the '78 to '83 911 SC. Some factors that appeal to me: (in descending order of importance)

1) Reliability - Great motors, strong trans (esp. the G-50 Trans in '88 Carerra), galvanized tub, lots of parts options for mods, lots of parts available for rebuilds, slightly easier for mechanics to work on (saves you a little $$) vs some other 911's.
2) Relative cost to buy - I think they are very well priced for all that you get.
3) Power-to-weight ratios and handling - This was the last series with the (relatively) original tub. Light, nimble (some would say twitchy) and instantly responsive. Probably one of the funnest, and most responsive 911's to drive. And the sound.... oooooh, pure Porsche. Oh yeah... the Euro Carerra W/ sunroof delete and other factory deletes are amazing! (Can't believe Bob Ehrman sold his. )
4) Street comfort - Even with some mods, the driveability on the street is really nice, quiet, and comfortable.
5) Options to modify - You can start with just tires and wheels, or go bonkers (AKA Mike Gagen) and create a full RSR monster .... or multiple options in between. I'd have a talk with Carl Scragg ( a Euro model ... NICE!) or Pete Millikin about their Carerras.

My only complaint about the SC/Carerra would be at 6'4" too tight an interior for me without modifying the seat ... esp. for a helmet.

I like Jad's idea of a spec car. You can have a fully street-legal 944-spec, and have a ball with it. Ride in Chris Benbow's 944-spec and tell me that isn't one crazy-fast/fun car!

So, these are my experiences and personal preferences. Others will tell you that since I drive a 944, I'm all wet (get it? Water-cooled ... all wet? Oh well, I tried.). But if I were to win a good hand at the Texas-Hold 'em table, I'd start shopping for a '88 Carerra the next day!

Good luck to you. I'm sure you'll be happy with any P-car you buy.

[bobbrand]

I like the pick a club and class advice.
It's no fun racing against yourself, no matter how nice your car is.

Come to KP, and you will have to fight for every ribbon.
I like the 944 spec idea too.
I also like the idea of Lewis' car. The AM ducktail guys are sort of a spec-class of their own (If they can just keep Roland out of there).

[David J Marguglio]

But if I were to win a good hand at the Texas-Hold 'em table, I'd start shopping for a '88 Carerra the next day!

Dan: thank you for finally verbalizing the lament/dream of every water-pumper!

[Curt]

I like the pick a club and class advice.
It's no fun racing against yourself, no matter how nice your car is.

Come to KP, and you will have to fight for every ribbon.
I like the 944 spec idea too.
I also like the idea of Lewis' car. The AM ducktail guys are sort of a spec-class of their own (If they can just keep Roland out of there).

My advice after building a nice early 911 into an '73 RS look AM car is to either buy Lewis's already done RS look and save a ton of money on what it would cost to build it yourself, or buy an RS America and a nice trailer for what it will cost to build a competitive AM car.

After running against Bob Brand, Tom Comeau and Mary Jo at recent TT and DE's, I've become a big fan of the 964 based cars.

[Jackie C]

Bryan,
Okay since it's been addressed by a couple of people and since you expressed interest in the charity challenge at the last AX, think about the spec optionl. Since you are fairly new at this, get the most bang for your buck. Try the value car-944, lots out there, lots of parts available and easy to resell when you are ready to step up. That opens you up to GSS, GS and spec right out the gate. I d have recently built a spec car completely stripped down to the tub and rebuilt again, with my husband's "free" labor for under $10K. I also have a street legal , currently registered and smogged 83 944 for sale-needs a timing belt. It's yours (or anyone else's) as is for $1K. See you at the track
Blue skies,
Jackie

[Jad]

What it comes down to is personal taste. There is no 'right' answer. They are all a LOT of fun, very fast, well built money pits. There is always someone with a faster car and no car is perfect for all tracks or types of events. I recently heard a single Nascar team has about 60 cars for the various tracks per season and they only turn left.

Everyone tends to recommend what they have as it was the correct decision for them (or they need to justify at least ), so I will add, the best bang for the buck is a 944 turbo. You can buy one for around $5k, put $10K in mods and have a top ten time of day car. You will have to deal with waterboy comments, etc and they are hard to AX, but the bigger the track the faster they become.

What do you really want the car to do well? AX, TT, big track, club race?

While looking is half the fun, just remember, you can race and really enjoy yourself in a 914, 944, 996, GT3 or any other Porsche, or kart, or ???. It is all about personal preference, $ to burn, image and use.