Anyone see the POC Article PCA vs POC?

[rss996]

In the year end review book of POC the article by Dan Davis?

His comparison and personal perspective seems a little biased and does not not make PCA look very good.

I do not know anything about POC but thought the article was a little strange to be so negative against PCA...

Is there a big rivalry or bad blood between the two clubs?

[Tim Comeau]

No rivalry that I'm aware of, though as a member of both clubs, I sense a certain "elitism" sometimes from some of the POC guys. Taking pride in your club is just fine, but.......
Dan was comparing PCA club racing (virtually non-existant for us) with POC club racing.
Keep in mind that he did say these were his experiences and perspectives. Just one opinion. I happen to disagree with some of what was written because my own experiences have been quite different. Some things written were just plain wrong. Like, "...even previous autocross experience is not required" to get on to a track for a DE event. ??? What PCA Region was that? Certainly not San Diego.
Dan is of the mind that making drivers go through the long drawn out POC process(typically a couple years) of earning a racing license, is better. Some drivers are ready to race much sooner than that. A "catch all" strategy? Wouldn't it be better to base advancement on individual merit? Guess where those "ready"drivers go? Racing with us in NASA. Members/Customers are lost. Some POC guys feel that this long licensing process will protect them from new drivers crashing other cars out. Guess what? The POC has (relatively, based on car counts) just as much contact/crashing as any other racing club.
Anyway, we know our club is really much better than theirs. In fact, we have the best club in the world. Yeah, that's it. And we don't let any kooks in......
No, but seriously, each club has it's own flavor and I enjoy them all. It's easy to understand that when you realize that the racing clubs are made up of the same Type-A, fun, excitable, sometimes pushy people.
But that's just my opinion.......

[kary]

Having spent a fair about time in both clubs time trialing I have to say there are benefits in both clubs. The POC does allow for individual merit, at least in my case they allowed me a time trail license after having a check ride for one session. Otherwise I would have had to go through an entire season of short track series, yikes! I know that in POC club racing I could enter into it as I am qualified through time trailing but only after I do two racing schools. I think this is a good idea frankly.

As a comparison between the clubs in time trialing I believe that on average, again I said "on average" , the PCA time trailers are not as strong a set of drivers as are the POC time trialers. I consistently run with both groups and it is very obvious, though I would admit there are people in both clubs that do dumb things on the track.

Which leads to another topic which was also discussed in the POC article. That is, enforcement of the rules. From my experience in time trailing, POC is very strict with 13/13's while our PCA has not administered any sactions like 13/13, at least in time trailing. I think that 13/13 is a good idea, but I think we need to actually enforce it. BTW, I hate to provide examples here so I will not.

As far as allowing drivers on tracks without any experience, I think PCA SDR has done an excellent job in the past two years of changing the rules in order to participate in big track events. From having to compete in 4 auto-x's to having the proper safety equipement, I think we are moving in the correct direction. POC is still much more strict than PCA on safety though, which I think again, is a good idea. Things happen quickly in big track events and surviving an incident should be first and foremost.

Which club do I like? That is an interesting question. I like PCA and the friendships. I think PCA SDR (we) are building a great time trail program (thank you Jack!). I think we are still moving forward in the right direction and should continue on. I like POC rules, I like the way they run their events, most of the time I do find POC to be a bit more serious and very competitive, which I like and do not like. I would like to see PCA SDR get a bit more strict about incidents and continue on the path of qualifying drivers to be on the big track. My main reason for this is I am taking my own life into jeopardy instructing with folks that may not have car control skills, may not have proper safety equipement, and may just simply not have enough experience driving. I think it is only fair to instructors to expect such a little bit of qualification as a driver.

[MikeD]

Well, I've only been with the POC and PCA for a couple years. So my experience and observations might be a bit limited.

1) Consider the source. The couple times I've heard Dan Davis talk about PCA it is VERY obvious he has a personal bias against PCA. I seems like something happened in his Club Racing childhood that scarred him for life.

1.a) He is also a prima donna. As far as I can tell he is not the most loved person within POC because "if it doesn't favor Dan Davis, it must be wrong."

2) Most of the PCA experience he speaks of has to do with midwest and east coast PCA. As far as I can tell West Coast PCA is a completely different club than that of the rest of the country, they just happen to be under the same name.

2.a) Keep in mind that elsewhere in the country PCA DE's ARE the introduction to performance driving. Similar to the way NASA does it here.

3) I don't agree with his assesment of the 13/13 enforcement. I got a 13/13 from POC. It was a single car incedent, no harm no faul, right? There was not even a loss of track time as I was able to drive my car off track without any help. A pair of channel locks and an alignment and my car was back on the road ready to track. Heck I've been driving it at both POC and PCA events just like that for 4 months now. I don't think you could come up with a better oppotunity to excercise one of his stated "exceptions". If I was the paranoid sort I might suggest that was because I do not drive an air-cooler 911 and therefore am not a member of POC's Good 'Ole Boys Club.

4) As for POC licensing? Maybe I'll forget to tell good 'ole Dan that I have yet to attend a POC Short Track event and that I did maybe 4 POC TT's prior to getting my POC Club Racing license. And that POC took my PCA Club Racing license as credential enough to get into a POC Racer's Clinic. Or maybe I'll mention that fact next time we're both in this position...



Don't get me wrong I like racing with the POC. But I race with them for an entirely different reason than I race with PCA. I race with PCA because it's fun, I get to meet and get to know some great people and cars. I race with POC because I want to learn to be fast quickly. He's right about that aspect. There is not near the level of competition at PCA as POC. But there is also not near the level of comradery at POC and there is at PCA.

BTW Kary, I do not belive that neither PCA nor POC have 13/13 rules for their DE/TT series.

[kary]

BTW Kary, I do not belive that neither PCA nor POC have 13/13 rules for their DE/TT series.

Here is the verbiage for all POC participates from the 2005 GCR's:

If you are involved in a minor incident that damages only the car that you were driving (single car incident), you will be given a
written warning in your Driver’s Logbook. If you receive a 2nd written warning in your Driver’s Logbook during the next 13
months, your 2nd entry will automatically result in a 13/13 penalty (which commences from the date of the 2nd warning). The
Competition Committee may, at its discretion, determine that your single car incident is worthy of a 13/13 penalty, even though
you have no previous warnings in your Driver’s Logbook.
You may also be issued a 13/13 for reasons other than an incident with contact and damage. These may include, but are not
limited to, dangerous driving, unsportsmanlike conduct, poor judgment, or gross negligence by a driver and/or any of his/her crew
or guests.

I do not know if PCA has this or not but I have seen POC administer it and I think it is a good thing for everybody if PCA had something like this. IMHO.

[lowyder993s]

I got a 13/13 from POC. It was a single car incedent, no harm no faul, right?

If you read the summary of the POC T-hill event it says MA Melnick "went wheel to wheel...resulting in unsolicited contact. The wisdom of a good roll cage became very clear and paid dividends."

Hmmm...

Remember Mike...you DON'T have a POC race license...you (and I) are provisional. You have to finish 4 race weekends incident free to be granted a race license. In terms of dollars and cents a POC race license costs north of $1,500.00 to obtain (2 schools and 4 w/ends @ roughly $275.00. That doesn't take into acct. the MANDATORY safety uprgades to race. Or the tires. Or the lodging. Or the...

Now...all that being said...those schools are hands down the best of any schooling I can think of. You come out of there w/ a realization of what is expexcted of you as a provisional racer. It also makes me feel a little more at ease w/ drivers on the track who have all gone thru the class. Everyone HAS gone thru the class, right?

[MikeD]

Yes, true Jim. I guess that was my "exception". I have a provisional license but my incedent at PIR didn't have any negative effect on the process.

Yes, as far as I know EVERYONE who gets a POC license has to go through a Racer's Clinic.

I do really like the clinics. I plan to do one every other year or so just to keep on top of things.

BTW, I don't know if it's changed for '05 but when we got our licenses it was 5 races we needed to complete before we can remove our red dots . The interesting thing is that I don't know if that includes the Qualifying Races (or Fun Race) along with the Cup Race.

Another difference between POC and PCA is that when you ask a rules based question on a PCA forum (here or Rennlist) you get a ton of help from those that have gone before. But when you ask the same type of question on the POC board all you get is "Contact the Rules Committee or so-and-so for an answer to that question"

[MVZ944T]

Dan's comments in his article did not amaze me near as much as the fact that the POC heirarchy decided to put them in print. I think it was a poor choice and as other have mentioned, I don't know where he got his information and his obvious bias toward the PCA, but I cannot believe he got it from Zone 8 or SDR.

[lowyder993s]

BTW, I don't know if it's changed for '05 but when we got our licenses it was 5 races we needed to complete before we can remove our red dots . The interesting thing is that I don't know if that includes the Qualifying Races (or Fun Race) along with the Cup Race.

I was hoping qual races counted but according to Jeff Melnick its no...its a race weekend...and it was 4 weekends, not 5 according to JM. BTW... I wasn't implying your shunt put you back or anything...I thought you hadn't been thru 4 race weekends yet. BTW... thoughts on Portland?

[rss996]

Great insights guys, thanks!

I think our PCA SDr is a great club and you guys do a pretty good job making the newbies feel good....Going on my 3rd year in the club I really am starting to get a feel for the various aspects of the club...

We do have the best volunteers and one hell of an autocross team putting on the most fun event one can go to for $40 bucks a day!

Thanks!

[ttweed]

In the year end review book of POC the article by Dan Davis?

OK, I missed this article. Where is it? Was it published in Velocity, or was there some other POC "year-end review book" that I don't have?

TT

[kary]

Tom, yes it was the "2004 Year in Review". Just got it about 2 weeks ago.

[David Ray]

The POC/PCA comparison was interesting (and Biased) however IMHO there is a world of difference. In short, PCA SDR = Club and friends within SD County. POC - racers, racers, and racers and lot's of ($$$$) to gain entry, although you can't find a better racer's clinic/driving school for the money (tough to get in however) and the "red dot" seems to last forever .

Additionally, there are many (less expensive) alternatives that accept Porsches: TCRA, Pantera Club, and Driving Concepts to name a few.