PCA SDR

Here are the results from yesterdays autocross:

Results: http://results.pcasdr.org/event_standings.php?time_format=0&database=&event_date=2014-05-24

BRI: http://results.pcasdr.org/event_bri_standings.php?time_format=0&database=&event_date=2014-05-24

Of course this begs the question of how to interpret these results since the track was changed after timed runs had started and not everyone ran the same course

Greg

Greg Phillips wrote:Of course this begs the question of how to interpret these results since the track was changed after timed runs had started and not everyone ran the same course
Greg

Other people and I made the same observation yesterday from the pits. Timing was stopped for a long time to move the track after al least one group already completed their timed runs. Although I did not see what was changed, cones were being moved and re-chalked.

Historically, if there were any course changes made after timing had already started, the event results would NOT count and everybody was awarded with 5 points. The track conditions have to remain equal for all competitors.

Many years ago, I was scolded for moving one cone only about a foot. I had to move it back to the original broken pavement or the event results would have had to be canceled.

I agree, this should be a 5 points event for all competitors

Greg

According the Guiding Principles section of the Zone Rules, i.e. espousing fairness to entrants, any protest would have to be upheld. Best to just call it even (5 pts.)

I believe the rule is that if the track is changed within timing, the event is a non competitive event and everyone is awarded 5 points, just like in a rain out.
But I don't find that wording or anything like it in the current Zone 8 rules.
I do find that any protest must be filed within 30 minutes of the end of the event.

So I think there are arguments for each.

I think it is a call for the Zone-8 staff since it was a Zone 8 event.
Tom?
Russell?

I've shared what I know about the situation with the Zone 8 Driving Rules Team, but I've also raised this issue to the SDR region to weigh in.

The track conditions did remain equal for all competitors. That is why it took soo long to change, We Had to make the right turn a little tighter Soo we made the left turn a little looser

JERRY B wrote:The track conditions did remain equal for all competitors. That is why it took soo long to change, We Had to make the right turn a little tighter Soo we made the left turn a little looser

The Autocross Chair just confirmed that the track was changed, therefore this event should be canceled to be fair for all. No matter how you tried to compensate, the track was still changed.

martinreinhardt wrote:

JERRY B wrote:The track conditions did remain equal for all competitors. That is why it took soo long to change, We Had to make the right turn a little tighter Soo we made the left turn a little looser

The Autocross Chair just confirmed that the track was changed, therefore this event should be canceled to be fair for all. No matter how you tried to compensate, the track was still changed.

Remember how important these points are for traveling Z-8 participants.
Remember some people are in a highly calculated hunt to win their class.(No prize money, but much effort spent)
I would poll the first timed run group, if they don't care then I would say we are good.

And let this we a lesson for us to never make this mistake again!

Not to throw gas on the fire, But I think we changed every track this year during timed runs Due to big holes Etc. SOO at the next one we need to state in writing that the track May be changed Due to Big holes Etc. During timed runs. Or We could just make all events 5 points Since the parking lot isn't getting any better



"And let this we a lesson for us to never make this mistake again!" WHAT MISTAKE WE HAD NO CHOICE

I ran my first timed lap (white group) then the track was adjusted and I ran my last two. I didnt even notice the change,
What bugged me was sitting in the grid while they made whatever adjustment to the track. It throws the whole thing off to have to sit like that......tic tic tic tic. Long enough to get out of the car & chat. Having said that I seriously could not even tell where the adjustment had been made unless someone had told me. I think the crew did a great job of moving it if that is what happened. Fun track. thanks to all for putting on a great event!

Those lemon bars were the bomb weren't they
Chris

Steve Grosekemper wrote:

martinreinhardt wrote:

JERRY B wrote:The track conditions did remain equal for all competitors. That is why it took soo long to change, We Had to make the right turn a little tighter Soo we made the left turn a little looser

The Autocross Chair just confirmed that the track was changed, therefore this event should be canceled to be fair for all. No matter how you tried to compensate, the track was still changed.

Remember how important these points are for traveling Z-8 participants.
Remember some people are in a highly calculated hunt to win their class.(No prize money, but much effort spent)
I would poll the first timed run group, if they don't care then I would say we are good.

And let this we a lesson for us to never make this mistake again!

so this means, if enough people invest enough time and enough money, and have a vested interest in the outcome, rules don't matter?

In case some data is helpful, I'll include links to images of my GPS data graphs from the event. Some of you may have similar or better logs yourselves, but I'm sharing in case this helps the conversation or conclusion.

Links to full resolution images:
GPS Data Log Course Map all 12 laps
GPS Data Log Course Map (Zoomed Section) all 12 laps

Small/low-res image:

• Laps 1-8 are shown in green, and timed laps 9-12 are shown in red.
• The Orange arrow indicates the area of the course that was tweaked during timed runs.
• The Blue arrow indicates an area of the course that was changed sometime before the timed runs (just for a relative comparison). I think there may have been other earlier adjustments too.
• Most of the rest of the variability between runs is just me trying different lines or getting a little loose...

My $0.02 on the situation is:

• In my opinion, it seems to be extremely difficult to make the driving conditions during all 2 hours of timed laps identical for every participant.
• Things that are out of our control that affect cars and drivers will change during those 2 hours, such as temperature, humidity, wind, sun angle/visibility, random distractions, etc.
• The course surface conditions will also change with debris being pushed around, maybe a few drops of leaking fluids, and the asphalt getting torn up.
• I assume that the rotating run-group schedules throughout the season are an attempt to level at least some of those variables for everyone, and any other variables are just part of the sport.
• I feel that the reality we have to deal with at the Q is that we can either:
• (A) Keep the course unchanged as the inevitable potholes and loose chunks grow, and have later drivers suffer the negative consequences of those obstacles (car damage, taking an altered course, etc).
• (B) We occasionally need to make a best-effort / equivalent tweak to the course, even during timed runs, to try to give everyone a decent and safe surface that is as close to fair as possible.
• It would be ideal if drivers and/or corner-workers identified degraded areas shortly before timed runs, so course adjustments can be made then.
• Maybe a radio announcement to corner workers in the session prior to timed runs?

Aside from somehow finding another venue with a robust surface, it seems to me that the only other option is that several of the events would turn into 5-point events, and I'm not sure how much folks would like that.

I've helped the AX crew set up the course for the past several events, and I know it's impossible to find a path that will be guaranteed to survive the whole day of driving. We have a hard enough time defining a path that avoids all of the known obstacles (existing potholes, large cracks, trash bins, light poles, drainage grates, etc).

Also, I was corner working during the first half of the timed sessions, and on the radio I heard that several asphalt chunks got kicked up and hit a car, so something had to be done.

Some more interesting data (I like data) and an idea:

In my data logging app, I defined split traps shortly before and shortly after the section of the course that changed.

If I look at my sector times for that section of the course, my average time went from 5.5 seconds in the first 8 runs to 5.6 seconds in the last 4 runs. Granted, every driver and car would have a slightly different experience, and I'm looking at a very small data set (8 runs + 4 runs), but at least that establishes a ballpark.

Looking through the class results, if we assume the course change cost the typical car and driver 0.1 seconds, then only 4 pairs of Porsche drivers, and 3 AX drivers battling for more than 1 point fall into that threshold.
Even if we believe it cost 0.2 seconds, then eight pairs of Porsche drivers, and the same 3 X-car drivers are in that category.

Someone with access to the run-group assignment list (who was in which run group) can cross-reference if any of those pairs of drivers could have been affected. Orange ran first before the change, and white was the group running when the change happened. I'm not sure on which lap it happened in white, but I think it was relatively early, possibly just after the practice lap.

Just an idea to help people rest easy, especially if none of those close pairs were affected, or if none of those pairs actually cares about their points.