PCA SDR

I strongly oppose the elimination of SS classes (Zone 8 proposed rule change #11).

The comment published with the proposed rule insults SS drivers by implying that SS classes are for Novice drivers and for drivers who are too lazy or ignorant to classify their cars in CC classes. I am not a PCA historian, but I suspect there is a long history of SS classes, based on the concept that Porsche owners should be able to run their cars without any modifications and be competitive with similar cars. The essence of a Porsche is that it is (as purchased) a real “sports” car capable of competition driving. I have no doubt that many autocross drivers participate largely because they have the opportunity to compete directly with cars just like theirs, with no modifications allowed.

One may argue that the CC classes (based on measures of power, weight and modifications) allow for cars of similar potential to compete fairly. There is still an inherent difference between a car which has been heavily modified for a specific type of racing, such as autocross, and a late model stock car which happens to have a similar weight and horsepower. More important, eliminating SS classes simply takes away the opportunity for PCA members to just drive their car to an autocross and compete with cars which really are just like theirs (rather than with cars 10 or 15 years older which, through extensive race-specific modifications end up in the same CC class). Of course, if SS drivers choose to add non-stock suspension enhancements and other modifications to their cars, they are free to compete in the CC classes.

Further, there are many PCA members who truly appreciate the way that Porsches are engineered and factory built, and enjoy competition among Porsches in their natural state. Once cars are forced into CC classes, a driver who wants to win is pressured into modifying his car to stay competitive.

Lastly, the notion that SS classes are for Novice drivers is insulting. One has only to look at the posted race results for various regions to see that many long-time and highly respected drivers compete in SS classes. I have no doubt that the elimination of SS classes will cause a reduction in the number of autocross drivers.

My comments are with respect to autocross. Time trials may justify having CC classes only.

I agree 100% with Don Costello. He has stated the SS facts extremely well and has included everything that I have been thinking about all morning. I have my notes ready to send to Russell Shon. Rules@Zone8.org. Anyone else in the SS class that feels very insulted about being lazy or ignorant should send their comments directly to Russell Shon immediately. That is the proper way to get your voice heard. (Don please send your post to Russell for publication to the Zone 8 site for comments) I do not want to compete with the drivers in a highly modified class with Treadware tires of a 40 or less. I am not a novice and will not run in novice, I want to have the choice to compete with other drivers in an "as delivered" street stock car.

Angela Avitt
2014 991 S
#42

I also agree with Don.
While I haven't competed in an "SS" type class for many years, I think that they are Key to the entry of new people into our events.
I was very frustrated when I and my son started. We were hopelessly outclassed by cars that were modified. We almost quit as, even with skills development, there was no chance of being competitive. Then, the rules were changed and began a true "Stock", Stock class. That allowed us to learn and develop on an equal car level basis and made it a lot more fun. Yes, the itch to go faster eventually moved both of us to more modified classes, but without the "Stock" class to start, we would have likely not stayed.

As Don and Angela state, stock Porsches are great. If you want to leave them that way, we, as a club, need to have classes that allow our members to have an equal footing to compete on.

My $.02

Chuck

I agree.
I have run SS classes from time to time over my last 25 AX years and it is great competition.
The main point here is that many people do not want to modify their cars and that includes tires.
That is what the SS class system is for and it should remain as it is.

We have a lot of possible classes, that doesn't mean we are going to have cars in them all.
We really used to have a lot of classes before the CC class system overhaul.
There is nothing wrong here; so no need to fix anything with the SS classes.

Just my 2 cents.

BTW- If you posted something about rules changes make sure Russell has your input in the form of an email.

As usual I see both sides to this. Very low turnout in SS and LL classes for Zone series points, along with the fact that a skilled driver can be VERY competitive in CC classes driving a showroom stock car right off the lot. We do have a history and tradition of offering a separate class for nearly every car and driver. Is this a good thing? You decide.

Please do send in your comments regarding proposals to the rules chair. The most valuable comments to the rules committee are the ones that address the proposed rule change directly and ignore incendiary comments from others. Comments regarding comments regarding comments don't move things forward much.

Dave
The proposed rules are at http://www.zone8.org/events/rules/proposed.php. That Zone 8 page explicitly and repeatedly states that members should comment on proposed rules by sending comments directly to the rules chair at Rules@Zone8.org. How else will anyone know how the members affected by the rules feel about the proposed changes?

I hardly feel the several comments above are incendiary.

DonCostello wrote:Dave
The proposed rules are at http://www.zone8.org/events/rules/proposed.php.

I hardly feel the several comments above are incendiary.

Agreed. I think most here feel that the comment already posted to the rules chair under "rationale" using terms as "lazy" and "ignorant" is pretty insulting and incendiary. Kindly ignore those comments and focus on the actual proposed rule for best results. Supporting data showing lots of active participation of drivers in SS classes for the points series is also very useful.

Sometimes people get excited and simply forget that "the mic is still on". Forgive them.

Aavitt wrote:I agree 100% with Don Costello. He has stated the SS facts extremely well and has included everything that I have been thinking about all morning.

+1 here, except that I can think of at least two more things to add. First of all, when this new classing system was created, there was a huge consolidation of classes at that time. We do not need another 50% reduction in the name of "better competition." Whoever thinks that there are too many classes now doesn't remember the old days.

Secondly, it was my understanding that the SS classes were included to mimic the "Showroom Stock" classes according to the PCRs, so that people could prepare their cars and practice with them in the configuration they would run at the Parade autox. This alone, IMHO, is enough reason to maintain the SS classes "as is."

As someone who recently moved back to stock class, where I started in 1997, after years of competing in modified cars, the idea that SS is for novices or those who can't bother to understand the rules is absurd. The fact is that I have chosen NOT to modify my newer model car while it is still under factory warranty, and I'm sure there are others who have their own reasons for staying in SS that have nothing to do with experience levels or inclination to read the rules.

I am preparing my comments to send to Russell at Rules@Zone8.org now, as should everyone else who disagrees with this proposal.

TT

can't you run a ss car in a cc class?

Gary Burch wrote:can't you run a ss car in a cc class?

Sure, you can do that, but you will be running with street tires against cars on race compound rubber. SS is the only class that requires 140 treadwear or greater. In the CC classes, you are subject to the dubious point penalties for tire compounds which no one can agree upon (and have been changed several times already, with another proposal to change them once again this year). I've had enough of 40-point tires suddenly becoming 80-points overnight, or 60-point tires suddenly becoming 140 penalty points. Now there is a proposal to make my 0-point street tires 20 points, which would kick my car up from CC09 to CC10! I can tell you with certainty after only 3 events in the car that I would be 2 seconds off the pace in CC10 running my SS04 car, and forced to go to R-comps to be competitive if that happened. We need to maintain a street tire classification, in my opinion. It is not at all clear to me that Porsche would have to honor their warranty if I used the car with race compound rubber, and I don't want to go there...

TT

how many times have we wrangled with tires, points and fairness? in the end nobody is happy



maybe we should all run in ss...

Gary Burch wrote:maybe we should all run in ss...

The street tire classes in SCCA Solo are the largest and fastest growing segment.

TT

As a matter of fact, SCCA is currently phasing out all R-comp tires in the street classes. For a long time, all DOT tires were allowed in the street classes. Currently, softest allowed is 140 and they are going to 200 in 2015. A move long overdue for a street or stock class, in my opinion. I believe that last year they had an R-comp segment for the highest powered street classes, but that seems to be gone.

Tire are tough. The rating is a somewhat arbitrary number each manufacturer assigns to the tire. They are not consistent from brand to brand, change often without changes in the tire, and are often based more on marketing than performance. Add to that new compounds coming out monthly, the fact modern street tires are better than ten year old R-compound tires, the variations in 'width' among the same size tires between brands and there are always going to be problems.

Also, a new tire is significantly better than the identical half worn tire. Some are more effected by heat, pressure variations, vehicle weight, etc

And then there is the final problem, no matter what, his tires are better than mine

when we switched to the cc class system we gave up any street class access, except for new cars, too bad