Here is a thought around BRI and classifications....

[kary]

I was looking at the classifications and the BRI index for classes and realized something. The class I entered in MI has a maximum points of 21-40. The BRI index is 1.1150, which is quite high.

In Rolands case, which is AM he can take 40-54 points and his BRI index is 1.0740, which is quite low compared to mine.

Our real times were about 1.13 seconds apart (111.16, 112.29).

The other AM cars in the class ran 115.78 and 119.57. Both slower than my time in MI.

Now given the rules you can always move up in classes but never down, so if I were to have entered in the AM class, thus obtaining the AM BRI index (much lower than MI's) my adjusted time would be 120.59 as compared to Rolands adjust BRI time of 119.39. I would have had a BRI rating of 2 rather than 18. I would have also been second place in AM versus first place in MI (which has few cars anyway).

I am sure many of you can also recompute like this, but probably will not have as great a gain because MI has one of the highest BRI indices. It seems to me there is something wrong with allowing this to happen, though I think I might just enter AM cause there are more people in that class to compete with

Thoughts?

[jrgordonsenior]

Hey Kary,

I little off topic but.....check out this add on Rennlist. For a minute I thought you were selling that car. Look where it is in the photo compared to your avatar pic....

http://mall.rennlist.com/scripts/featur ... =retrieval

JRG

[Curt]

What size TORSION BARS will you be running in AM? Who will you be selling your coil overs too? How about your ABS? Is that hard to take out? Threshold braking is no picnic when the human in the car controls it. You going to take off your slicks and run Kumhos like the other guys in that class? How about that rear suspension? Do you want some old rear trailing arms instead of the best suspension ever to grace an air-cooled Porsche? How about a 915 transmission that is about as ambiguous a gear change as you can make? Do you like slowly counting one-------------thous-------- and----------one between gears before being able to UPSHIFT?

Don't you have your hands full trying to battle against cars that are one generation newer than yours? You want us to battle against your car that's FIVE generations newer than ours? We already have Roland beating us up and taking our lunch money

[gulf911]

No problem Kary, whats another 3.6L in a class with all 3.2L's Leave your slicks at home, run V700's like the other AM boys and see how you do...

[Otto]

A way to evaluate how reasonable are the current BRI indexes for each class relative to another is to calculate what time would have been required for the winner of that class to equal the performance of the BRI winner. I have taken a few classes that have been won by well prepared cars and driven well. Of course, to say "driven well" is a matter of opinion but you can be the judge. I used this Fontana event results and compared several drivers/classes with Roland's performance by dividing Roland's corrected time of 119.39 by the respective BRI index for each class considered. I then subtracted the resulting time required to equal Roland from the actual time for each class winner, and it looks as follows:

JP (me) to equal Roland would have needed to drive 4.28 seconds faster than I did (impossible for me)
KP (Jad) 2.60 seconds faster to equal Roland
KI (Jack) 1.22 seconds faster to equal Roland
MI (Kary) 5.22 seconds faster to equal Roland
MS (Bernie) 3.66 seconds faster to equal Roland

You be the judge. Is Roland so good that he can beat all those drivers and cars by that much or is the AM BRI index factor for the class somewhat lenient relative to each of the respective classes shown? Can each of you drivers named gone that much faster? Above type of analysis can also serve to compare the classes shown with each other.

From my standpoint I say that I should have driven faster than I did (up to 1 sec) to reach my potential but 4.28 sec faster is a bit too much to expect from a JP car. Fontana is an interesting track to use for a comparison because it has both a relatively tight infield and long "straight", which somewhat balances "handling" and "horsepower" cars, as Steve commented.

[kary]

Hey Kary,

I little off topic but.....check out this add on Rennlist. For a minute I thought you were selling that car. Look where it is in the photo compared to your avatar pic....

http://mall.rennlist.com/scripts/featur ... =retrieval

JRG

Yes, I know Kevin from Rennlist. Looks alot alike

[bobbrand]

Curt's right (and pretty funny once again).
There's no progression from MI -> AM under the new rules.
It's old tech cars versus new tech cars now. You'd have to go to KM or something.

As for Otto's email, I think he makes a lot of sense.
AM's BRI index was probably computed from historical times of AM, which has traditionally been ducktail 3.2 RS clones. When Gagen and then Roland came along in properly prepared cars, then the index probably needs to be adjusted for that.

I would like to see the ducktail cars get a competitive class for themselves though. Those cars are cool and we've got a bunch of them. I hate to see someone like Dan Andrews turn his cool gulf car into some giant winged monster.

It looks like Kary has a big disadvantage in Otto's table. But, how many points are on the car? It doesn't look that prepared to me. Are you running a 40 point MI car? Jack Miller has said many times that he is not a well-prepared KI car.

I'm not saying BRI doesn't need some tuning, but if you are not in a well-prepared car, then you shouldn't complain about BRI. Of course, these +4 or +5 second differences are pretty big to overcome. But, then again, if you can change your cams, short gears, and add an airplane wing, and still stay in class, then maybe they are not.

[jrgordonsenior]

Please indulge me for a moment...

I'm having difficulty understanding the PCASDR's classification systemfor AR or AM. Cars listed as inclusive are 356's, 912's, and 914's per the Time Trial Regs. I searched the Club Race regs and still didn't find an explanation for this class. All the other classes including X are self explanatory, can someone please point me in the right direction....

[kary]

A way to evaluate how reasonable are the current BRI indexes for each class relative to another is to calculate what time would have been required for the winner of that class to equal the performance of the BRI winner. I have taken a few classes that have been won by well prepared cars and driven well. Of course, to say "driven well" is a matter of opinion but you can be the judge. I used this Fontana event results and compared several drivers/classes with Roland's performance by dividing Roland's corrected time of 119.39 by the respective BRI index for each class considered. I then subtracted the resulting time required to equal Roland from the actual time for each class winner, and it looks as follows:

JP (me) to equal Roland would have needed to drive 4.28 seconds faster than I did (impossible for me)
KP (Jad) 2.60 seconds faster to equal Roland
KI (Jack) 1.22 seconds faster to equal Roland
MI (Kary) 5.22 seconds faster to equal Roland
MS (Bernie) 3.66 seconds faster to equal Roland

You be the judge. Is Roland so good that he can beat all those drivers and cars by that much or is the AM BRI index factor for the class somewhat lenient relative to each of the respective classes shown? Can each of you drivers named gone that much faster? Above type of analysis can also serve to compare the classes shown with each other.

From my standpoint I say that I should have driven faster than I did (up to 1 sec) to reach my potential but 4.28 sec faster is a bit too much to expect from a JP car. Fontana is an interesting track to use for a comparison because it has both a relatively tight infield and long "straight", which somewhat balances "handling" and "horsepower" cars, as Steve commented.

I can tell you there is not more than 5 seconds in my car with me driving, that is for sure. Maybe another 1 or even 2 seconds if I really take risks.

Otto, I think you merely pointed out the high BRI index for MI, at least that is my opinion and I am sticking to it!

[kary]

Curt, Dan,

Sorry, I was merely trying to make a point about the whole BRI and classifications. While my car may have some nice items, Rolands 993 motor in a lighter car is the real issue. Wait unitl I lighten mine up more and am forced into your class because of points

[bobbrand]

KP (Jad) 2.60 seconds faster to equal Roland

If I had a stage II chip, I would have gone 2.6 seconds faster

[Curt]

Curt, Dan,

Sorry, I was merely trying to make a point about the whole BRI and classifications. While my car may have some nice items, Rolands 993 motor in a lighter car is the real issue. Wait unitl I lighten mine up more and am forced into your class because of points

Kary,
Our point is that your 993 will never be in AM. It's not possible, I think you go to KM next, and then AR. Thank goodness for that. It's not that we don't want you hanging around our class...... well, actually, it is You're too fast!

[kary]

Curt, Dan,

Sorry, I was merely trying to make a point about the whole BRI and classifications. While my car may have some nice items, Rolands 993 motor in a lighter car is the real issue. Wait unitl I lighten mine up more and am forced into your class because of points

Kary,
Our point is that your 993 will never be in AM. It's not possible, I think you go to KM next, and then AR. Thank goodness for that. It's not that we don't want you hanging around our class...... well, actually, it is You're too fast!

Yes, now that i look at it more carefully I think you are right, I am forced into KM then AR....ok, who are the KM boys?

[bobbrand]

Yes, now that i look at it more carefully I think you are right, I am forced into KM then AR....ok, who are the KM boys?

That would be Bill Dawson, but I think first you have to get ahead of Jack in KI.


Hmmm. Interestingly, Bill has one of those old torsion bar cars, but is on the new-car progression due to how turbos are classed.

[kary]

Yes, now that i look at it more carefully I think you are right, I am forced into KM then AR....ok, who are the KM boys?

That would be Bill Dawson, but I think first you have to get ahead of Jack in KI.


Hmmm. Interestingly, Bill has one of those old torsion bar cars, but is on the new-car progression due to how turbos are classed.

Bob, I do not have to go to KI and can just go to KM directly, though it would be good to first beat up Jack before doing that! In order to do that I need to take some more points and have Jack make some mistakes like he did at SOW, I am low in points for my current class anyway.