Here is a thought around BRI and classifications....

[MikeD]

It’s the same old story whenever class specifications change. That is why I stopped trying to build a car to any one organizations class specifications.
Class specifications change without warning and rarely cross over between racing organizations.
Build the Porsche you want.

I will have to respectfully disagree with this Mike. This really only applies if you do not care about winning and/or you are in an ulimited class.

If you make the wrong change for an organization you can end up in a class where you are not even close to being competitive. Getting lapped in a 30 minute sprint by cars in your class really sucks! But I console myself with the fact that I will one day win in PCA D (because that's the class I am building my car for).

[Mike]

Class specifications change without warning and rarely cross over between racing organizations.
Build the Porsche you want.

I will have to respectfully disagree with this Mike. This really only applies if you do not care about winning and/or you are in an unlimited class.

My situation is neither, I prefer to win and my racing budget is limited.

If you make the wrong change for an organization you can end up in a class where you are not even close to being competitive.

I agree, let me add even if your car remains the same sometimes the rules change rendering you uncompetitive. Reference the HM/AM discussion.

To be competitive in any class is to be the first every year to get the new rule book and then immediately prior to the first race of the season exploit via $$$ all rule changes that shall give your car an advantage.
I choose not to commit the money, time or energy to chase rule changes.
So I decided to build the Porsche I wanted and I’ll race it where it fits best.
Maybe someday (think Roland) some class rules will be changed to fit my car perfectly.

[MikeD]

Mike: I said unlimited class not budget. AM with a max of 54 points is essentially unlimited.

And keeping up with the rules is not as expensive as you make it sound. I don't know this for certain, but I haven't heard Jack talk about adding this, or adding that. His car was a D winner when he bought it, and except for maintenance and little things here and there, it's still a D winner (for now anyway ). And once my car is up to spec in D I do not think I am going to be needing to make major changes every year to keep the car tops in its class. But maybe I'm just being idealistic.

[ttweed]

Mike: I said unlimited class not budget. AM with a max of 54 points is essentially unlimited.

AR is the unlimited class in Zone 8 rules. You can use up 53 points in AM surprisingly quickly once you start sliding down the slippery slope. My 3.4 engine in my AM car alone is 33 points because it is not a "stock" motor, while Roland's 3.6 "stock" transplant with more power and torque is only 20 points. Bad choice on my part, but based on $$$ and not rules. If I put in a cage carried to the suspension points, that's 10 more, leaving only 10 points for tire width, track increase, soft compound tires, springs, swaybars and brakes. There is no way to fit all that in (4+2+4+2+2+3) and stay in AM. That ain't "unlimited" prep.

TT

[MikeD]

OK, AM is not unlimited, but 54 points is still a LOT of points to play with. And if you followed the line Mike G. is advocating you would have a 57 point AR car with a 3.4L engine. I haven't really looked at your results Tom, and I know you are a good driver but, how competitve could you reasonably expect to be in AR?

You still need to pick a class and build your car for that class. I still do not see how you can just "build the Porsche you want" and expect to be competitve. I think Roland's circumstances are 1 in a Billion. Circumstances which he did not count on when he built his car. Building a race car, hoping that it will be competitve in it's class is not a wise direction in my opinion.

[ttweed]

I haven't really looked at your results Tom, and I know you are a good driver but, how competitve could you reasonably expect to be in AR?

Not at all. That's why I had to sacrifice on the cage and go with a bolt-in, 6-point one to stay in AM at 53 points, where I am STILL not competitive, with Roland in the class. Why do you think I'm driving a G-Stock car mostly, now?

TT

[Mike]

Mike G. is advocating you would have a 57 point AR car with a 3.4L engine. how competitve could you reasonably expect to be in AR?

Mike a 3.4 engine would be a good choice in PCA GT3. It does not crossover well to AM or AR. For the same amount of money you could have a built 3.8 or 3.9 and be better off in AR, though not legal for GT3.

I still do not see how you can just "build the Porsche you want" and expect to be competitve.

True Mike, most of the time.
Here's my situation.
To be competive in a PCA AX/TT AM class you need to build the Porsche PCA AX/TT rules tell you to build. But that Porsche is not competitve in PCA GT3 club racing. The Alfa Club and TCRA class rules vary from PCA and each other as well. At least in Alfa it is based on hp to wieght, tough to inforce but allows you to build the car you want.

So based on that what would you do?

Racer's motivation varies. What you and I want is different.

You want to compete in a year long class series battling for season’s points and a year end first in class. You are going about it the right way.

I want to have fun, race for the sake of the race. If you know what that means you'll understand my motivation

[MikeD]

You want to compete in a year long class series battling for season’s points and a year end first in class. You are going about it the right way.

Actually, no. I am building my car to PCA D spec for two reasons. 1) It's the least amount of work (well, almost) I have to do to get competitve in a class, and 2) when (if) I put the car on the market, that market will be national rather than just regional (selling a local race preped 911 is easy compared to selling a race preped Boxster). PCA does not have a series. You don't get a trophy or accumulate points. Which means I am spending my money to get the car competitive for 4 races a year that mean nothing (hmm... how smart is that???).

I want to have fun, race for the sake of the race. If you know what that means you'll understand my motivation

I do understand what that means. That is why I race with POC. My car will never be a front runner in R5 (the top class in the Orange Race). So I just find one or two people to mix it up with during the race and have fun.

[gulf911]

I can see both sides, however, realistically you will gamble with just how competitive you can be if you do not have an idea on where you want the car to fall. Being last all the time or not even in the top 10, only stays fun for so long... After building the car you want, you could end up not wanting the car you built....

[Dan Chambers]

Okay, so let's get back on track here, hmmmm?

Reviewing 3 pages of comments, a couple of points might be considered:

1) The BRI was developed in fun to attempt to "even the playing field" for those drivers who might use excuses in the pits, or "on the bench" about why they're getting beaten by other drivers. Examples: "Well Dan A. gave me a whuppin,' but with a lightened car and a tuned 3.2/Motronic managed engine in a car with after-market suspension and brakes, I could never have a change to catch him in my stock-class 944S2." Thus, the BRI was developed to more-closely even these cars out with appropriate multiplyers that adjust their finish times to be more competitive with each other. Where did the multiplyers come from? Careful consideration of a car based on class (AS to AR). Were (are) the multiplyer for the different classes perfect? Well, no. With all due respect to Carl Scragg and the tens or hundreds of hours he's volunteered to develope this BRI system, it has further to go before it's perfect. AND, the BRI was developed before the new changes which took affect in 2005, further pushing the mark away from perfection of the BRI indices. Compound that with the fact that someone with, say 8 points in a 7-20 point class is lumped with a car that has all 20-points in upgrades, and you are further pushed off the mark of BRI competition with your own class bretheren. Developing a car that will push you to the highest possible mark on the BRI may not be the bench-mark for modifications you want to make on your car. Since the BRI is not a perfect gauge of driver-skills or a perfect reflection of a driver's skills, concerning yourself with the results may only benefit the makers of high blood pressure medication, since the system is not currently perfect. Building a car based on BRI stats would be tough on your wallet, and a real boost to the local P-car specialty shops. I'm sure Steve G. would use the extra cash to put his daughters through college and grad-school based on drivers building their cars to BRI standards.

2) Change is inevitable. As we have seen in 2005, the rules are subject to change. The variablility and effect of those changes are an unknown every year. A perfect example are all those drivers who were in SS or S class in 2004 who now find themselves in "P" class . How do you jump from Street Stock one year (with 4 points) to Prepared class the next (with 7 points)? Simply make one mod, and watch all the new points tacked on to your old (SS classs) car with the new points system. Are changes going to happen again? Hmmm, I should ask if the sun will rise tomorrow. Of course it is, and of course, changes in classes are due to happen again.... soon. So, the next question should most likely be: What's in your wallet?

I'm going to have to agree with the sage Mr. Gagen with repect to the notion of building the car you want vs. the car that best meets the class you want to compete in. He's driven enough events, in many different car clubs, over the years, to know that car classification and rules are as predictable and accurate as earth-quake prediction. So, build the car you want and like to drive, and let the competitive cards fall where they may. This year's FI class loser may just be next year's AM smokin' winner, depending on the rules changes. Regardless of the class, or the changes in rules, the owner will always be smiling because he's driving the car he wants, and having fun doing so.

Getting to the point, the car classes are an ettempt to make things fair and more even. As better mod's are developed, changes are bound to happen in car classes. It's a living classification system, with limitations. The BRI is nothing more than a "braggin' rights" system that comes close to evening the playing field. As the class rules change, the BRI may be thrown to the wind until adjustments are made. This year, with all the changes made in classes, the BRI is a bit further off the mark than it was when originally developed. I don't take too much stock in it this year. It's jut too early.

Final word: Have fun, enjoy the events, don't invest too much time, money, or high blood-pressure in a competitive program that awards $1.39 ribbons, and remember we're all P-car brothers and sisters here.

Just my 2-cents.

Dan C.

[MikeD]

Okay, so let's get back on track here, hmmmm?

Actually Dan, the BRI discussion moved over here (you may want to repost you comments so they get included in that thread). This thread sort of morphed into a discussion about car classification.

[ttweed]

Building a car based on BRI stats would be tough on your wallet, and a real boost to the local P-car specialty shops.

Not really, Dan, the BRI was meant to give the stock, unmodified cars a chance, right? That means less investment in mods. Sway bars and good tires for 6 points and you're good to go, with the right car.

I know the $45K invested in my AM car has never gotten me as high in the BRI as my stock '67S, which cost me way less than half of that.

TT

[Dan Chambers]

Building a car based on BRI stats would be tough on your wallet, and a real boost to the local P-car specialty shops.

Not really, Dan, the BRI was meant to give the stock, unmodified cars a chance, right? That means less investment in mods. Sway bars and good tires for 6 points and you're good to go, with the right car.

I know the $45K invested in my AM car has never gotten me as high in the BRI as my stock '67S, which cost me way less than half of that.

TT

Excellent point, Tom. Yes, the BRI was originally intended to give the lesser-to-non-modified cars a break. I'm not sure where that has evolved to now. But, your point id absolutely correct. Maybe I'm thinking more towards the Class-to-Build-and Modify issue. Different clubs, different classes, diffrent potential mods. You're right.