X cars in BRI?

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X cars in BRI?

Postby Jad on Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:09 pm

When did full factory racecars and X cars get the CC16 BRI factor? Seems a bit generous?

Doesn't really matter, but a Cup Car should tear up the BRI at Fontana... Most X cars shouldn't have such a high BRI, so I don't see how it really relates to the wide variety in X? Does more harm than good.
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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby ttweed on Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:46 pm

Jad wrote:When did full factory racecars and X cars get the CC16 BRI factor? Seems a bit generous?

I didn't even understand what you meant when I first saw this post, Jad, but when I looked at the results today I saw that the BRI index for X class has been changed to equal the highest CC class index at 1.06. It used to be set at an arbitrary 3.0, which was high enough to effectively eliminate any X car from the indexed competition. It appears that it was changed last year (2015), as the 2014 results still have the old 3.0 index. I don't remember any discussion about that change, but I don't pay much attention to the rules any more. I do agree that the purpose-built race cars and exotics that can compete in our X class could easily score well in the indexed results, but the club policy is that X class is not included in hierarchical results, no? They are entered "for exhibition only." I don't know why the TT results show them interspersed with the other classes. The AX results are not posted that way--all X class entries appear at the bottom and are not included in the classified result listings like they are in the TT results. A different algorithm must be in use for posting the TT results vs. AX results. I haven't paid that much attention to the TT results since I haven't run them for several years, now.

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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:17 pm

I don't know how this got changed, but we are looking into its correction.
Thanks for the heads up.
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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby rshon on Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:14 pm

The answer:

"This issue came about because of CC16, not X class. CC16 is basically an "unlimited" class, as it is the highest classification in the CC system and has no upper bound on possible points. When adjustments to the BRI were being made at the end of 2014, a review of the CC16 number indicated that it might be a bit low. But how do you put an index on an "unlimited" class? So a survey of the cars that had recently competed in CC16 timed runs was performed (a handful in TT and probably NONE in AX), and an equivalent CC points number was chosen to base the CC16 BRI on that was slightly higher than what we could normally expect to see at an event, but not so high that it wouldn't still be fun for the CC16 participant. And because BRI is supposed to be for fun, at the end the X class was given the same index as CC16.

To validate the BRI numbers for CC16 (and X), during 2015 both the CC16 and X results for all of SDR's TT's and AX's were monitored. In no case did the value present an issue, the CC16 and X cars being WELL out of the range that people cared about (especially for AX). So late into last year the monitoring stopped.

This year's CFOS presented a unique situation. It is the only event the SDR TT team puts on that may have Cup cars entered into the TT (usually they enter to get more track time; they usually NEVER do timed runs). And production-based race cars have always had the option of running in either X or CC16. Then the rain forecast for Sunday afternoon came, and it was voted on by the drivers attending the TT meeting to use their best time for the results instead of doing timed runs. At the time, it was decided to NOT use any CR times for those who did not show up to the meeting, but that was later reversed because TT-only drivers who did not show up to the meeting were going to get their times allowed. So it ended-up that EVERYBODY'S practice times got into the results, whether they were actually going to do timed runs or not.

This problem was never a real problem before; the circumstances of this year’s CFOS TT caused a blip this one time. Also, the result would have been the same if the Cup car driver had registered as CC16.

The general understanding is that BRI is supposed to be for FUN; putting an index of 3.0 is effectively EXCLUDING the participant and you might as well not even do a calculation. If BRI is supposed to be about FAIRNESS, then CC16 and X should both be excluded, because we cannot guarantee that someone will not run a full-blown factory race car at either a TT or an AX in either class. But based on over a year’s worth of data, this should generally not be necessary.

In general, the policy is to NOT make changes to rules and related things during the year unless there is a SAFETY issue; for next year, the options are to raise the index again for both CC16 and X cars, or to exclude them both from all BRI results. If one were to look at the results for the last 7 TT's (before CFOS) and 13 AX's, up until CFOS this has been a non-problem."
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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby JayG on Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:09 pm

As long as we are in the subject of BRI factors, they need to be looked at, especially for the SS classes.
SS02 = .941 , CC05 = .938
SS03 = .945 , CC07 = .946
Really???


Ok, I get it,I should be running in a CC class.......
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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby Jad on Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:48 pm

I see the logic, but I think it is flawed. First, the concept of the BRI is to give people in the slower cars a way to compare their times to the fast cars since the slow cars can not compete for overall TTOD. The cc16 cars are competing for TTOD and don't need the BRI to compare to the slow cars? If they win, they did well, if they lose they didn't.

Second, the BRI assumes you car is optimized for the class. CC16 and X can't be optimized so you are applying a standard that would not be applied to the other class of a 'typical' time being used to create the index. I know the entire BRI is questionable, but putting a stock Miata and a CupCar in the same index really is meaningless at comparing driving skill to others.

The BRI isn't some perfect system with millions in prize money, but I do think it is a fun and telling (though clearly flawed) indication of driver skill. Adding CC16 and X to that mix seems to dilute the usefulness of the entire system for some questionable enjoyment for the CC16 and X drivers.

I will concede, CC16 could be added as there is somewhat of a limit to a street car (Cupcars can't be in CC16 unless you start with a street car and mod it to Cupcar specs?) and some reasonable expectation of performance.

This certainly isn't a safety issue or something that MUST BE FIXED NOW! Just thinking it wasn't really a good change. I would vote for going to the old system of excluding X cars at the minimum. :beerchug:
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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby rshon on Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:16 pm

From the Zone 8 Rules, Section II Driving Event Classes, Subsection C.:

"Note 1: Factory race cars that are based on street cars (found in the Base Points list) may run in the appropriate CC class as determined by their level of modification above and beyond that of the production street car."

The Zone 8 Rulebook can be found here:

http://www.zone8.org/assets/docs/2016/2016Z8Rules.pdf
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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby Jad on Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:24 pm

Here is the other relevant part of the X class description:

(X class) This is an exhibition only class. No Zone 8 award points or trophies are awarded in this class. This class is for non-Porsches, Porsche replicas, factory race cars and exotics such as the 917, 550 Spyder, 904 and 959 (or other models not listed in the Base Points chart). This is also a class for those who want to have fun running their car but do not want to interfere with other participants' efforts to win series points or awards.

Note 1: Factory race cars that are based on street cars (found in the Base Points list) may run in the appropriate CC class as determined by their level of modification above and beyond that of the production street car.

Note 2: As stated above, for class competition purposes there are no Zone 8 points or trophies for class X. However, if an individual region has other competitions that are not based on the class structure, such as Top Time of Day or Top 10, etc. rules for those competitions are to be determined by the host region. Inclusion or exclusion of class X in these competitions is at the region’s discretion.

So a CupCar may not have been the best example if you claim it is just a modified 991, but a 919 Hybrid LeMans prototype could also run against a Miata or any Porsche with the same BRI factor? Still seems like a ridiculous idea to place the same BRI index on all cars in X and CC16, just slightly higher than CC15, under the pretense of providing an indication of the drivers ability. The rules actually say no trophies for X cars for any trophy based on the class structure, which the BRI is, so it violates that rule except no trophy is given in TT. :surr:

That said, I applaud the rules committee and all the hard work they do. This isn't really a big problem in the grand scheme of things, I was just curious how it came about, not trying to create a problem or say this needs to be fixed.
Last edited by Jad on Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby ttweed on Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:29 am

Jad wrote: Note 2: As stated above, for class competition purposes there are no Zone 8 points or trophies for class X. However, if an individual region has other competitions that are not based on the class structure, such as Top Time of Day or Top 10, etc. rules for those competitions are to be determined by the host region. Inclusion or exclusion of class X in these competitions is at the region’s discretion.

Ignoring the BRI issue for the moment, and the unique circumstances of the CFS due to weather this year, there is a fundamental difference between the way AX and TT results are posted on our results site. In the AX results, X class cars are not included in the Top-10, BRI, or overall hierarchical results. They are listed at the bottom in a separate category. In the TT results, X cars are included in the results with the other classified cars in the order they finished, not separately. This seems to be inconsistent to me, unless our region has made a conscious decision to treat X cars differently in AX vs. TT result reporting. Another possible explanation is that the TT series is not really considered an SDR series but a Zone 8 series, so there is no "host region" to make the decision about inclusion or exclusion of the X cars in results. I know the CFS is not a SDR event anymore, though it may have started that way, but it could be argued that the TT portion of it is an SDR event, and certainly many of the other TT events in the series are exclusively produced and sanctioned by SDR, and results for them are currently posted in the same way throughout the season (with inclusion of X cars).

I guess I am wondering if we, as a region, made a purposeful decision at some point to treat the AX and TT series differently for X cars? I really don't know. I do know at one point, the AX result posting method was changed to exclude X cars from the hierarchical result postings (or more specifically, to post them in a separate section at the bottom). Was this same algorithm never applied to TT results on purpose, or by oversight?

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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby jenniferreinhardt on Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:10 am

Yes, Tom. Years ago, the club made the decision to separate Porsches and X Cars from the Autocross results.
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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby tb911 on Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:55 pm

ttweed wrote:I guess I am wondering if we, as a region, made a purposeful decision at some point to treat the AX and TT series differently for X cars? I really don't know. I do know at one point, the AX result posting method was changed to exclude X cars from the hierarchical result postings (or more specifically, to post them in a separate section at the bottom). Was this same algorithm never applied to TT results on purpose, or by oversight?
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Yes, I think when Curt Yaws was President, there were complaints from autocross drivers that it wasn't fair for an X-car to beat a P-car in the top 10, etc. so the board voted to exclude X-cars from the top 10 in autocross. The decision was explicitly made to be AX only as the TT crowd wasn't complaining, didn't care. Last year the board further restricted X-car reporting in AX results, again leaving TT alone.
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Re: X cars in BRI?

Postby ttweed on Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:19 am

tb911 wrote:Yes, I think when Curt Yaws was President, there were complaints from autocross drivers that it wasn't fair for an X-car to beat a P-car in the top 10, etc. so the board voted to exclude X-cars from the top 10 in autocross. The decision was explicitly made to be AX only as the TT crowd wasn't complaining, didn't care. Last year the board further restricted X-car reporting in AX results, again leaving TT alone.

Thanks for the explanation, Tom. I wasn't sure whether the TT results were left out of the "X-car purge" change on purpose or not.

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