Cajundaddy wrote:Much ado about nothing here I believe. The current proposal for SS classes simply aligns them more closely with PCA National Parade rules for showroom stock classes. Most PCA regions carry very similar rules requiring OEM wheels and tires for showroom stock classes. We were the outlier by allowing aftermarket wheels and tires that created a lot of heartburn among folks running bone stock cars against cars sporting ulta-lightweight, very expensive, competition wheels in smaller diameters, wider widths, and sticky RE-71r tires. This proposal eliminates that loophole and allows showroom stock cars to compete fairly with other showroom stock cars.
Can anyone name the cars available from the factory with N-spec tires rated below 200? Yes the GT3 and GT4. These are effectively fully functional race cars with plates. Do they really belong in SS classes on Cup II racing rubber against other 981s on regular street tires? Maybe not. This proposal improves fairness and good sportsmanship among all SS class competitors.
Only original equipment manufacturer (OEM) wheels
as originally specified and OEM tire sizes as originally
provided and/or specified for each specific model year
are permitted. All Showroom Stock class tires must
have a tread wear rating of 180 or greater.
ttweed wrote:Cajundaddy wrote:Much ado about nothing here I believe. The current proposal for SS classes simply aligns them more closely with PCA National Parade rules for showroom stock classes. Most PCA regions carry very similar rules requiring OEM wheels and tires for showroom stock classes. We were the outlier by allowing aftermarket wheels and tires that created a lot of heartburn among folks running bone stock cars against cars sporting ulta-lightweight, very expensive, competition wheels in smaller diameters, wider widths, and sticky RE-71r tires. This proposal eliminates that loophole and allows showroom stock cars to compete fairly with other showroom stock cars.
Can anyone name the cars available from the factory with N-spec tires rated below 200? Yes the GT3 and GT4. These are effectively fully functional race cars with plates. Do they really belong in SS classes on Cup II racing rubber against other 981s on regular street tires? Maybe not. This proposal improves fairness and good sportsmanship among all SS class competitors.
The part of this rule change that brings us in line with the PCRs is in requiring OEM wheels and tire sizes. I can see doing that. The original point of these SS classes was to allow folks to prep their cars for the Parade autocross competition, so I understand aligning our rules with the PCRs. The part involving changing the treadwear rating to 201 or higher does not concur with the 2016 PCRs as quoted below:Only original equipment manufacturer (OEM) wheels
as originally specified and OEM tire sizes as originally
provided and/or specified for each specific model year
are permitted. All Showroom Stock class tires must
have a tread wear rating of 180 or greater.
This is exactly how the proposal should read, if we are going to change the SS rules, IMHO, since the desire to align with the PCRs is actually mentioned in the justification for this proposal. So why contradict this desire with the deviation into N-spec and non-N-spec treadwear ratings? I agree with Owen that it seems to clearly be some kind of a sour-grapes attempt to disallow the RE-71R tire in SS (as well as the entire crop of other comparable 200 UTQG AX tires). Eliminating the best AX tire options for people running in SS is silly. If you want to kill the SS class participation, this proposal would be a great way to do it.
Additionally, requiring the GT3 and GT4 to change their tires to run in stock class is ridiculous. Why should they be singled out? They are not actually classed as claimed above: "Do they really belong in SS classes on Cup II racing rubber against other 981s on regular street tires?" There are no "981s on regular street tires" classified with the GT3 or GT4 in SS except the 2016 Boxster Spyder, which is classed with the 2004-2005 996 GT3 in SS07, and it has similar speed potential. There are no "regular" 981s classed in SS08 with the GT4 at all. Besides, the Cup2 is no more "racing rubber" than the RE-71R, despite its lower 180 treadwear rating.
Tt
jbrennen wrote:Do we want a class where folks are *encouraged* to run the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2?
That's the N-rated 220 TW tire that caused multiple PDS students to recently be told midway through the PDS that they needed to buy new tires to continue on Day 2.
Somebody please convince me that there's a tire model out there that would be legal under the proposed SS rules that can actually hold up to being autocrossed hard. Right now, I'm a skeptic.
I would have suggested the Michelin Pilot Super Sport, but a couple of other experienced autocrossers have complained of premature failures on that tire model when driven hard.
JayG wrote: If the idea is to make "showroom stock cars to compete fairly with other showroom stock cars" then things like a PDK need to be taken into the equation in class grouping. A case in point; at our AX this weekend, there was a long straight at the top of the course with hard right turn at the end. I know in my car, I hit the rev limiter in 2nd about 2/3 of the way down the straight, so I had to upshift to 3rd and then brake and downshift to 2nd before the corner. Is there anyone that would say a PDK was not an advantage in that corner?
JayG wrote: Andrew is correct, you MUST send you comments to: ruleproposals@zone8.org
This is not true. Read Section IV. B. of the rules. It states: "This draft proposal will be placed on the web site for further public review from Sep 15-Oct 31. Using this proposal and any comments it generates, the committee will then generate the official rule change proposal." Thus, the Rules Committee still has an opportunity to revise the current proposals before final submission to the Zone Presidents for a vote after Nov. 7, based on the comments the members make before Oct. 31.The problem right now is that the proposed changes pending approval are etched in stone., They cannot be modified now.
There is another huge problem with the proposed rule how it is written
In the current rule, it was very specific to what wheel could be on which axle as well as a specific restriction on track width.
Unless I am way off on my reading of the proposed rule, the proposed rule has neither. There is nothing that would prevent one from adding big spacers or using rear wheels on the front, which to my knowledge is what one of the issues was that predicated this rule change.
Do we want a class where folks are *encouraged* to run the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2?
That's the N-rated 220 TW tire that caused multiple PDS students to recently be told midway through the PDS that they needed to buy new tires to continue on Day 2.
Somebody please convince me that there's a tire model out there that would be legal under the proposed SS rules that can actually hold up to being autocrossed hard. Right now, I'm a skeptic.
I would have suggested the Michelin Pilot Super Sport, but a couple of other experienced autocrossers have complained of premature failures on that tire model when driven hard.
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