Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby JayG on Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:04 pm

jbrennen wrote:
pecivil wrote:
Or can it be a place where serious competitors can compete against other serious competitors in cars that are very close to equal in performance?


This describes the CC classes, not SS, right?


The SS classes do a better job than the CC classes of making sure that everybody in the class is in roughly the same category with respect to power and weight, and that they have the same options available to them for tires.

I'm not suggesting that every car that ends up classed in SS06 will be equal in performance -- however, I'm suggesting that everybody who optimizes an SS06 car is probably going to end up at a very similar place, no matter where they plan to run. You can't say that about the CC classes, where optimizing for a big track is very different than optimizing for autocross.


While there may be some disagreement on what Jack stated, I very much agree with it.

There definitely seems to be some disagreement on what SS classed "were" intended to be and what reality is today.
Pushing people from a SS class to a CC class will be counter productive for the club and IMHO will reduce participation in our events which will then raise participation costs
More classes means more people get to the podium and that equates to more fun for more people.

There have been many comments above that show a major downside to eliminating 200TW non N tires from SS. Just how many new people will participate in our events if they either have to replace their tires just to participate in SS or have to replace their tires after 1 event because they have been destroyed?

I would ask the question, How many in Zone 8 actually participate in Parade AX?
I would guess it is a fairly small number compared to how many participate in our AX and TT in SS classes.

If the intent truly is to better align with Parade AX rules, then that is what the rules should be, not what is proposed



What in the wild world of sports is the problem with competitiveness in SS?
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby mrondeau on Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:25 am

The reason most of the squawking over SS classes started was due to some drivers wanting to make changes to the "Showroom Stock" cars. SS classes should be for cars as delivered. The only changes should be alignment and any tire of the same or similar size in the same or higher tread wear as was available for that car. Any after market changes to the car beyond that should put the car into a CC class.

If you want to modify your car, go to CC Class. If you want to have a very competitive car in SS class, order it with the best options. If you want to just improve your driving in your stock Porsche. Just drive it! Seat time, seat time, and more seat time along with application of solid basic driving techniques will make you a better driver. You don't have to make any modifications to do that.

Regulating the rules to "even the playing field" is a time honored tradition that doesn't work. The cream always rises to the top. Unless you're at the pinnacle of driving expertise, the best way to get fast is to improve your driving skill.

In short: Decide if you want to modify your car. If no, SS class may be for you. Get a sport alignment, pick you favorite tire in the right size and compound and go have fun.
If yes, then do the math and try to figure out where your car may be optimized based on the current rules. This may change from year to year based on rule changes, but you can typically adjust your class by at least one and sometimes more classes just by changing tire compound and size. Most CC cars can easily run in 2-3 classes with just a few adjustments.

The end result should be that you're having fun. If you can't have fun without winning, maybe that says more about you than the car or the rules. Some of the best times I've had at AX or at the track were when I got beat by Jackie Corwin or Steve Grosekemper. We just had fun driving and challenging ourselves.

That's my $0.02
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby JayG on Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:32 am

mrondeau wrote:The reason most of the squawking over SS classes started was due to some drivers wanting to make changes to the "Showroom Stock" cars. SS classes should be for cars as delivered. The only changes should be alignment and any tire of the same or similar size in the same or higher tread wear as was available for that car. Any after market changes to the car beyond that should put the car into a CC class.

If you want to modify your car, go to CC Class. If you want to have a very competitive car in SS class, order it with the best options. If you want to just improve your driving in your stock Porsche. Just drive it! Seat time, seat time, and more seat time along with application of solid basic driving techniques will make you a better driver. You don't have to make any modifications to do that.

Regulating the rules to "even the playing field" is a time honored tradition that doesn't work. The cream always rises to the top. Unless you're at the pinnacle of driving expertise, the best way to get fast is to improve your driving skill.

In short: Decide if you want to modify your car. If no, SS class may be for you. Get a sport alignment, pick you favorite tire in the right size and compound and go have fun.
If yes, then do the math and try to figure out where your car may be optimized based on the current rules. This may change from year to year based on rule changes, but you can typically adjust your class by at least one and sometimes more classes just by changing tire compound and size. Most CC cars can easily run in 2-3 classes with just a few adjustments.

The end result should be that you're having fun. If you can't have fun without winning, maybe that says more about you than the car or the rules. Some of the best times I've had at AX or at the track were when I got beat by Jackie Corwin or Steve Grosekemper. We just had fun driving and challenging ourselves.

That's my $0.02


You are pretty much spot on, the driver makes the most difference.
Yes, many of us do not want to make modifications to the car other than tires and alignment. For some, being forced into a CC class may cause them to do less events as they like being competitive in their SS class, and won't be competitive in a CC class. As stated, Most CC cars can easily run in 2-3 classes with just a few adjustments. Some of these adjustments are fairly technical and can include fairly expensive parts to adjust the points so you are at the top point level for a given class rather that 5 points over and move to the next higher class.

And no, it's not just about winning. One of my most fun days was when my son beat me and I have fun no matter what place I come in. That being said, it is less fun if you are at the bottom of the pile than near the top

The problem is the proposed rule change (200TW w/N spec and 201TW otherwise) can prevent you from running the same TW rating as was delivered on the car and may require you to buy new tires to compete in a SS class.
Does anyone really know what tire was delivered on my Boxster when it was new 12 years ago? It could have been a Potenza S-02/S-02A which is N spec 140 TW. That was on the car when I bought it 3 years ago and under the proposed rule, that would not be legal for SS class. And in any case, making a TW requirement different for a N spec vs an non N spec is just plain crazy. It only serves to eliminate most if not all of the "good" tires.

No one is asking for SS to have lots of modifications allowed, the way our rules are now does not really allow it. If you are referring to the proposed change that was not approved regarding PDK's, that was a class change suggestion, not a modification.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby jbrennen on Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:57 pm

In order to maintain a strong and lasting competition in SS classes, I believe you need to make decent autocross tires available to everybody.

There is a downside to that -- according to one viewpoint. That is: a car right off the showroom floor may not be competitive in "Showroom Stock".

For me, that falls under the category of, "Well, yeah, of course. Porsche can't (and won't) deliver competition-ready tires on the vast majority of their cars."


My suggestion would be to abandon the name "Showroom Stock" and go with "Street-tire Stock". If the name no longer fits the class rules, but the class has healthy participation, then change the name, don't change the rules.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby JayG on Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:18 pm

jbrennen wrote:In order to maintain a strong and lasting competition in SS classes, I believe you need to make decent autocross tires available to everybody.

There is a downside to that -- according to one viewpoint. That is: a car right off the showroom floor may not be competitive in "Showroom Stock".

For me, that falls under the category of, "Well, yeah, of course. Porsche can't (and won't) deliver competition-ready tires on the vast majority of their cars."


My suggestion would be to abandon the name "Showroom Stock" and go with "Street-tire Stock". If the name no longer fits the class rules, but the class has healthy participation, then change the name, don't change the rules.


YES!
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby ttweed on Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:42 pm

jbrennen wrote:My suggestion would be to abandon the name "Showroom Stock" and go with "Street-tire Stock". If the name no longer fits the class rules, but the class has healthy participation, then change the name, don't change the rules.

Actually, the SS class in Zone 8 is already named "Street Stock," indicating its intention. The "Showroom Stock" moniker is from the national PCRs, not our rules. We have never strictly aligned our rules with the Parade AX rules, although our Street Stock definition does allow that it is a place for folks to run their cars "as delivered, without need or reason for modification."

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby JayG on Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:40 am

ttweed wrote:
jbrennen wrote:My suggestion would be to abandon the name "Showroom Stock" and go with "Street-tire Stock". If the name no longer fits the class rules, but the class has healthy participation, then change the name, don't change the rules.

Actually, the SS class in Zone 8 is already named "Street Stock," indicating its intention. The "Showroom Stock" moniker is from the national PCRs, not our rules. We have never strictly aligned our rules with the Parade AX rules, although our Street Stock definition does allow that it is a place for folks to run their cars "as delivered, without need or reason for modification."

Tt


"Actually, the SS class in Zone 8 is already named "Street Stock," indicating its intention" YES!!!!

Ok, with that being the case, why all the hubbub about driving it as it came off the showroom floor and highly restrictive tire choices?

Frankly, Street Stock is what I thought SS meant

"our Street Stock definition does allow that it is a place for folks to run their cars "as delivered, without need or reason for modification." and still allows for a select few changes, as is good
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby Gary Burch on Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:22 am

maybe SS should stand for "Slippery Slope"
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby rshon on Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:25 am

FYI. All submitted comments regarding the second round of proposals have been forwarded to the Rules Committee. I also asked them to review the last week's discussion on this forum, however the Rules Committee relies primarily on regular email submissions. Thanks for your input.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby ttweed on Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:22 pm

JayG wrote:... and still allows for a select few changes, as is good

Yes, as many people have mentioned, a competition alignment and a set of track-worthy tires that can stand up to the heat and abuse is pretty much mandatory if you are going to run more than an AX or two. Otherwise, your tire bill for a season is going to be astronomical when you chunk and/or cord a few sets.

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby SuperCobraPilot on Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:17 am

I think it is interesting that the people advocating moving everyone to CC are in many cases those with the most highly modified cars. I can't speak for all the SS Classes but I think that the in-class competition for SS is pretty darn good for those of us who don't want to strip the interiors out of our cars, buy trailers because they aren't street legal anymore, add 2" of track, 30MM of front tire width, and more negative camber than a slammed honda civic...

Looking at the event standings, there are just as many SS drivers than CC for AX so I am not sure where the lack of competition supposedly lies.

That said, I have won my class in AX on 300 TW Falken Azenis FK453s and been crushed with the exact 140 TW Bridgestones that my car was shod with upon factory departure. I have come in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd on RE-71Rs. IT ISN'T a CURE ALL... it still comes down to the driver!!! I guess my larger point STILL is this: If the people winning (or on the podium) are all using RE-71Rs with ostensibly similar grip, and you force them back into the same tires their car was delivered with or 220+ TW, they should STILL have similar grip, thus the results won't likely change, the same people will be competing for wins in that class because they are the better driver. Your "change" banning the "Cheater Tires" is thus rendered ineffective. Yes, it is frustrating for me when I am corner working and see someone in my class almost losing it out there yet posting a better time because their car has nannies and is 10 years newer. It is also sweeter when I drive to the best of my abilities and beat them, whether they are using all or none of the electronic aids.

To penalize someone because they bought a newer car and brought it out to AX and it helped them be more successful is counterintuitive and ridiculous. If anyone on here instructed in the 2017 C2S Cab that was out at PDS, you know that the thing is almost impossible to pitch even with everything turned off. So what? Put it in SS07 or SS08 and get after it. Despite the standard competitive driver grousing and complaining (we all do it), the classification on the SS side works really well.

It appears that the purists who derided water cooled engines, front mounted engines, PDK in the GT3, and everything else with a PXXX abbreviation are now focusing their ire on the Bridgestone RE-71R. Look at the TTOD. It is almost ALL CC cars with the occasional SS GT3 or Jack's GTS. Why? The drivers are all good but the CARS are all MODIFIED AND OPTIMIZED to perform in the AX environment. Half of the entrants don't want to modify their cars and enjoy competing with others who haven't modified theirs! Leave us alone and let us run RE-71Rs or whatever decent tire fits within the guidelines as they exist!!!! If I want to go 10mm narrower in the rear to accommodate that tire, big deal. If an SS guy wants to go up against the Modified Crowd, perfect. Jack does it all the time, as he mentioned. Leave the rules alone. They work.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby jbrennen on Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:05 pm

SuperCobraPilot wrote:Look at the TTOD. It is almost ALL CC cars with the occasional SS GT3 or Jack's GTS.


While I agree with most of what you wrote, I would point out that I have not managed TTOD yet. 5 times in the top 3, but never #1. :banghead:
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby Andrew Raines on Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:11 pm

Which has more discussion? This or the presidential election? I'll be happy when both are over :)
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby JayG on Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:47 pm

Can we see the final rule proposals that were submitted to the region presidents?
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby EricMarc-Aurele on Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:30 am

I think the rules have been finalized and decided on. http://www.zone8.org/assets/docs/2016/Rules/RuleProposals-VoteResults.pdf
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