Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

[Navairgeek]

JayG wrote:
"yes but a better class vs class to look at is SS02 vs CC06. In virtually every AX event, the CC06 cars are seconds faster than SS02, even PDK equipped 987's in SS02
(most SS02 cars with factory tire sizes would be in CC06 without mods)
Its not a question of easier. Someone new driving in SS is not having an easier time vs someone in a CC class
yes, you are correct, the drivers in CC classes tend to be more skilled than those in SS classes. Not always the case, but true more often than not.
All the more reason to have SS classes"

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, I'm getting my a$$ kicked in CC06 with my barely farkled 986S, by as much as 6+ seconds, and I'm a fair driver (PDS, 12+AX's, and 2 track days in Ole Blue). Hell, I was up against Sean Dynes in his full cage stripped/RE71 race wheeled/built 3.0 fi/2200lb ex race car as an example And then there's Mark Curran . I'm going back to SS02 as CC06 is the class for stripped hot rod 911's. I'm not doing it to win, but having a fighting chance is motivating

[JayG]

JayG wrote:
"yes but a better class vs class to look at is SS02 vs CC06. In virtually every AX event, the CC06 cars are seconds faster than SS02, even PDK equipped 987's in SS02
(most SS02 cars with factory tire sizes would be in CC06 without mods)
Its not a question of easier. Someone new driving in SS is not having an easier time vs someone in a CC class
yes, you are correct, the drivers in CC classes tend to be more skilled than those in SS classes. Not always the case, but true more often than not.
All the more reason to have SS classes"

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, I'm getting my a$$ kicked in CC06 with my barely farkled 986S, by as much as 6+ seconds, and I'm a fair driver (PDS, 12+AX's, and 2 track days in Ole Blue). Hell, I was up against Sean Dynes in his full cage stripped/RE71 race wheeled/built 3.0 fi/2200lb ex race car as an example And then there's Mark Curran . I'm going back to SS02 as CC06 is the class for stripped hot rod 911's. I'm not doing it to win, but having a fighting chance is motivating

Exactly what I have been talking about

[Gary Burch]

JayG wrote:
"yes but a better class vs class to look at is SS02 vs CC06. In virtually every AX event, the CC06 cars are seconds faster than SS02, even PDK equipped 987's in SS02
(most SS02 cars with factory tire sizes would be in CC06 without mods)
Its not a question of easier. Someone new driving in SS is not having an easier time vs someone in a CC class
yes, you are correct, the drivers in CC classes tend to be more skilled than those in SS classes. Not always the case, but true more often than not.
All the more reason to have SS classes"

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, I'm getting my a$$ kicked in CC06 with my barely farkled 986S, by as much as 6+ seconds, and I'm a fair driver (PDS, 12+AX's, and 2 track days in Ole Blue). Hell, I was up against Sean Dynes in his full cage stripped/RE71 race wheeled/built 3.0 fi/2200lb ex race car as an example And then there's Mark Curran . I'm going back to SS02 as CC06 is the class for stripped hot rod 911's. I'm not doing it to win, but having a fighting chance is motivating

Exactly what I have been talking about

Does getting a trophy make you a better driver?

[JayG]

JayG wrote:
"yes but a better class vs class to look at is SS02 vs CC06. In virtually every AX event, the CC06 cars are seconds faster than SS02, even PDK equipped 987's in SS02
(most SS02 cars with factory tire sizes would be in CC06 without mods)
Its not a question of easier. Someone new driving in SS is not having an easier time vs someone in a CC class
yes, you are correct, the drivers in CC classes tend to be more skilled than those in SS classes. Not always the case, but true more often than not.
All the more reason to have SS classes"

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, I'm getting my a$$ kicked in CC06 with my barely farkled 986S, by as much as 6+ seconds, and I'm a fair driver (PDS, 12+AX's, and 2 track days in Ole Blue). Hell, I was up against Sean Dynes in his full cage stripped/RE71 race wheeled/built 3.0 fi/2200lb ex race car as an example And then there's Mark Curran . I'm going back to SS02 as CC06 is the class for stripped hot rod 911's. I'm not doing it to win, but having a fighting chance is motivating

Exactly what I have been talking about

Does getting a trophy make you a better driver?

Yes, of course!

[mrondeau]

JayG wrote:
"yes but a better class vs class to look at is SS02 vs CC06. In virtually every AX event, the CC06 cars are seconds faster than SS02, even PDK equipped 987's in SS02
(most SS02 cars with factory tire sizes would be in CC06 without mods)
Its not a question of easier. Someone new driving in SS is not having an easier time vs someone in a CC class
yes, you are correct, the drivers in CC classes tend to be more skilled than those in SS classes. Not always the case, but true more often than not.
All the more reason to have SS classes"

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, I'm getting my a$$ kicked in CC06 with my barely farkled 986S, by as much as 6+ seconds, and I'm a fair driver (PDS, 12+AX's, and 2 track days in Ole Blue). Hell, I was up against Sean Dynes in his full cage stripped/RE71 race wheeled/built 3.0 fi/2200lb ex race car as an example And then there's Mark Curran . I'm going back to SS02 as CC06 is the class for stripped hot rod 911's. I'm not doing it to win, but having a fighting chance is motivating

Exactly what I have been talking about

Does getting a trophy make you a better driver?

No. Only seat time and know how can make you a better driver.

BTW, Mark Curran's "stripped down hot rod 911" is anything but. If you can't beat them, they're out driving you. It's rarely the car. There's only a 50 point spread between classes. In my car I can run anything from CC06 to CC10 depending on tire size, tread wear, exhaust and weight. That's the beauty of the CC classes. If you don't like the class you're in, you can usually move up or down just using tires. In SS classes, you are stuck in a class based on your car type, regardless of how it was delivered. Unless you ordered a 987 S or 911 S or any other model w/PDK and all the go fast factory stuff, you're at a disadvantage.

You also need to note that all AX tracks are different and require the driver to adapt to the track in a limited amount of time. Some drivers do that better and faster than others.

Forget the rules, don't worry about the tires and just focus on driving as well as you can for the next year by getting every good driver you can in your car. The #1 favor you can do yourself if you really want to improve is to check your ego at the door and just listen and learn. Ego is the enemy. Learn from everyone. A good driver will help you improve and a bad driver will teach what NOT to do.

Don't forget to breathe and have fun.

[Jad]

I have been AXing, racing and teaching for years. I often do back to back comparisons of tires and can definitely tell you for sure the Hoosier R7 is several seconds a lap faster than the Hoosier R7. It isn't even close as I demonstrate in almost every time trial when I put the R7's on for timed runs. No, that was not a typo, a new R7 tire is several seconds a lap faster than a used identical tire. So it is totally unfair for someone to have to compete with used RE71R's against someone with new RE71R's. Should we change the rules to also include tire wear points?

The rules are pretty darn good as they are and no matter what, they will not ever be perfect or completely fair. As Mark and others keep saying, it is the driver, not the details of the car that will win the class in almost every case. Mark runs in CC06-CC10 and his time usually wins all the classes through cc11 in his CC06 car. Same with Erik and others. My 996 beats Cupcars and 991 GT3's for TTOD, does that mean it is faster? It isn't the car, or tires, or options that are better.

If you are not getting in the top ten in the BRI consistently, it isn't the tires or the PDK of your opponent, spend more time learning from others and don't worry about minor rule inequalities. Have fun and improve your driving, not the car or the rules. It is fun making 'excuses', but we also know they are just excuses.

[kleggo]

I too am in favor of getting rid of SS classes. The way it is now it's getting to be like a modern grade school sports program - where everyone's a winner.
That's not the way racing works folks.....

Wow, that's not a very inclusive attitude and I suspect does not align with the PCA SDR charter.

Why exclude people if they want to keep their car "stock" and compete on what they might consider a level playing field?
The natural slope will most likely bring them to CC in a short time anyway.

Craig

[JayG]

I too am in favor of getting rid of SS classes. The way it is now it's getting to be like a modern grade school sports program - where everyone's a winner.
That's not the way racing works folks.....

Wow, that's not a very inclusive attitude and I suspect does not align with the PCA SDR charter.

Why exclude people if they want to keep their car "stock" and compete on what they might consider a level playing field?
The natural slope will most likely bring them to CC in a short time anyway.

Craig

yes, well said

[Greg Phillips]

I too am in favor of getting rid of SS classes. The way it is now it's getting to be like a modern grade school sports program - where everyone's a winner.
That's not the way racing works folks.....

Wow, that's not a very inclusive attitude and I suspect does not align with the PCA SDR charter.

Why exclude people if they want to keep their car "stock" and compete on what they might consider a level playing field?
The natural slope will most likely bring them to CC in a short time anyway.

Craig

No one is being excluded, there is a CC class for all

And they don't think SS is a level playing field, they are upset about PDK, PASM, tires with an unfair advantage or whether their stock car is classed with a faster stock car.

The CC rules are designed to try and equalize cars across the continuum, if it is not working for stock cars then we should try and fix the CC rules rather than having another set of classes.

But the CC rules do not cover everything, a performance alignment costs no points but will improve your times.
And they are not yet perfect, the present conundrum about the 200 treadwear tires is one of the gaps, but it is better to slowly work at refining the CC rules.

Greg

[Navairgeek]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, I'm getting my a$$ kicked in CC06 with my barely farkled 986S, by as much as 6+ seconds, and I'm a fair driver (PDS, 12+AX's, and 2 track days in Ole Blue). Hell, I was up against Sean Dynes in his full cage stripped/RE71 race wheeled/built 3.0 fi/2200lb ex race car as an example And then there's Mark Curran . I'm going back to SS02 as CC06 is the class for stripped hot rod 911's. I'm not doing it to win, but having a fighting chance is motivating [/quote]

No. Only seat time and know how can make you a better driver.

BTW, Mark Curran's "stripped down hot rod 911" is anything but. If you can't beat them, they're out driving you. It's rarely the car. There's only a 50 point spread between classes. In my car I can run anything from CC06 to CC10 depending on tire size, tread wear, exhaust and weight. That's the beauty of the CC classes. If you don't like the class you're in, you can usually move up or down just using tires. In SS classes, you are stuck in a class based on your car type, regardless of how it was delivered. Unless you ordered a 987 S or 911 S or any other model w/PDK and all the go fast factory stuff, you're at a disadvantage.

You also need to note that all AX tracks are different and require the driver to adapt to the track in a limited amount of time. Some drivers do that better and faster than others.

Forget the rules, don't worry about the tires and just focus on driving as well as you can for the next year by getting every good driver you can in your car. The #1 favor you can do yourself if you really want to improve is to check your ego at the door and just listen and learn. Ego is the enemy. Learn from everyone. A good driver will help you improve and a bad driver will teach what NOT to do.

Don't forget to breathe and have fun. [/quote]

Mark, I have no ego at the Q, I'm there to have fun, although I have won CC06 and 2nd once, a few years ago (IOW I 'm not a novice). I hope to make it to the next AX, plz ride with me and tell me where I can improve?

[LUCKY DAVE]

I too am in favor of getting rid of SS classes. The way it is now it's getting to be like a modern grade school sports program - where everyone's a winner.
That's not the way racing works folks.....

Wow, that's not a very inclusive attitude and I suspect does not align with the PCA SDR charter.

Why exclude people if they want to keep their car "stock" and compete on what they might consider a level playing field?
The natural slope will most likely bring them to CC in a short time anyway.

Craig

No one is being excluded, there is a CC class for all

And they don't think SS is a level playing field, they are upset about PDK, PASM, tires with an unfair advantage or whether their stock car is classed with a faster stock car.

The CC rules are designed to try and equalize cars across the continuum, if it is not working for stock cars then we should try and fix the CC rules rather than having another set of classes.

But the CC rules do not cover everything, a performance alignment costs no points but will improve your times.
And they are not yet perfect, the present conundrum about the 200 treadwear tires is one of the gaps, but it is better to slowly work at refining the CC rules.

Greg

Craig,
As Greg says, I am not trying to exclude anyone, and there really is a CC class that fits every Porsche (such as the $2500 944 that I occasionally run in CC02).
The rules committee tries really hard, but don't expect any set of rules to be perfect in all cases. "There ain't no such animal"
Just drive and have fun - that's why we do this after all.

[pecivil]

It is ironic to me how the fastest drivers primary advice is to forget the rules, forget tires and just drive better, don't worry about winning and have fun, as you read their posts discussing the minutia of examining the rules in detail and maximizing your class and mod points combinations in order to win. Those who can take advantage of the RE-71 loophole readily do so with glee and gusto, to help them win. You gotta love that.

I am not too humble to say that I like the competition aspect to autoX. Who shows up to lose? One of the awesome things about SDR is the level of competition and driving. Winning is tough, and that makes it mean something. Maybe its not tough for Jad to get TTOD at the TT, but you notice he likes to remind us of it in these discussions. So for sure checking your ego at the door will help you learn to be faster sooner, but even the fastest guy in the region still has one.

And even those of us not in the top 10 in the BRI still can have a valid opinion, and mine is giving up 20 free points to your class competitors (40% of the points in your class) is significant. Especially if it is for tires, which we all can agree play a significant role in lap times on ANY course, autoX or Big Willow. Sticky tires = lower times. It is probably the one instant mod you can do that will reduce the times of all skill levels. Not equally of course, but faster no doubt. As it pushes someone out of your class, it pushes another in who is probably faster. So its not about a specific car in a specific class. Its about eliminating the "Unfair Advantage, the cheater sticky street tires" as they have been noted by many respected fast drivers in the club. Who is arguing they are not 40 point tires I ask yet again? No one is. And NASA has provided a great looking point system that probably took all the work out of determining the various options and relative capacities.

So while we of course cannot have a perfect set of rules, that doesn't mean if we see a disparity in something significant, we cant recognize it and change it, to make the playing field a bit more level. Of course never perfectly flat, but flatter than before, at a pretty small cost. One line in the rule book. When the next 200 TW rating tire comes out that is really a 50TW rating in performance, it will surely pop up on the radar screen, because all those who look for every advantage will surely find it, and we can evaluate it.

I think it would be interesting to try to scale the NASA points to our points scale, for fun and to see how things fleshed out points wise. Our tire points system looks pretty crude looking at theirs.

[Jad]

Hi Monte, sorry you took my post that way. My point was not about ego, it was about the fact I have been doing this for 20 years and know what is important and what isn't.

You seemed to have ignored my point that the age of the tires matters more than the brand.
____

Specifically, how do you propose that tire age is handled if your goal is to create a more even playing field?
____
You called our current system 'crude'. Past experience with this issue has proven to me, that simple is better, as a complicated system improves nothing, and causes significantly more work with zero benefit. You may try the NASA points system, but while age of tire is a huge factor, I am not denying brand makes a difference as well and the better drivers will choose the best tire they can, causing a chicken and egg problem if you think showing the RE71R is a cheater because it wins. Look at how close 2nd place in class is to Mark or Erik and see if you believe it was the tire brand that made the difference.

[JayG]

A big problem with having points specific to a tire model is they change every year or so
Lets look at the last few years for street tires
RS-3 was the hot tire a few years ago, now its RE-71.
Anyone what to take a bet there will be a "new" tire next year that out performs the RE-71 at 200 TW?

Having specific points for a specific tire will be an endless quagmire.
Doing it by TW, while it is at the whim of the tire manufacturer, at least is simple (+1 Jad) and equally applicable to everyone

[pecivil]

Jad,
Your opinion is for sure one of the most valid on here and the fact you weigh in on these questions is appreciated by all I am sure. I definitely appreciate yours and every ones comments. But I disagree with the notion not being in the top 10 means tires and points and rules don't matter to you. Perhaps I should have stated that better. But the ego thing is alive and well in all of us, otherwise we could dispense entirely with the expense and struggle of timing and rules and points and competitions and just drive.

I have made no proposal to deal with tire age, because in my opinion, it would be impossible to do, obviously. But most definitely my goals with all of this is to make a more level playing field, if it is obvious and simple to do, and we (some?) recognize there could be an issue. Its up to the club to decide the merits. Changing RE-71's to 40 pts seems simple and easy to do to me. The sky wont fall down if it happens I promise. Discussions for and against should be made, and I am making mine, and am glad others are making theirs. That is what should happen and it looks like the process is working perfectly to me. However the club decides I am good with it.

As for the tire wars issue, again, it looks to me others have done a good job with this and we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel. No pun intended. When you look at the NASA breakdown, and ours, ours looks crude. I am not saying it isn't brilliantly thought out, or that simple is bad. Just looking at dealing with what Greg artfully called, "The 200TW conundrum". Maybe crude wasn't the best word to use and if any were upset please accept my apology.