Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

[LUCKY DAVE]

I too am in favor of getting rid of SS classes. The way it is now it's getting to be like a modern grade school sports program - where everyone's a winner.
That's not the way racing works folks.....

[JayG]

But we are not racing at AX or TT
they are HPDE, but not racing

all seriousness aside

Getting rid of SS classes would be a mistake. If that were the case, then the CC classes would need some serious changing. Having stock cars in the same class as often heavily prepared cars would be grossly unfair to those in the stock cars. Even with the current point system. Are you going to tell me that a stock 996 is competitive against the Black Forest 914?. They both are in CC07 or a stock 986 S/ base 987 is competitive against the prepared 911's , both are CC06.

A stock car with its stock suspension and street tires is no way competitive with a prepared car with a tuned suspension and R-comps.

New people coming in with stock cars would have no chance of placing in top 3 unless they modified their cars

[Andrew Raines]

But we are not racing at AX or TT
they are HPDE, but not racing

all seriousness aside

Getting rid of SS classes would be a mistake. If that were the case, then the CC classes would need some serious changing. Having stock cars in the same class as often heavily prepared cars would be grossly unfair to those in the stock cars. Even with the current point system. Are you going to tell me that a stock 996 is competitive against the Black Forest 914?. They both are in CC07 or a stock 986 S/ base 987 is competitive against the prepared 911's , both are CC06.

A stock car with its stock suspension and street tires is no way competitive with a prepared car with a tuned suspension and R-comps.

New people coming in with stock cars would have no chance of placing in top 3 unless they modified their cars

The points system should be inherently fair regardless of the number of "modification" points. If reworking needs to happen then it should happen.

[JayG]

The points system should be inherently fair regardless of the number of "modification" points. If reworking needs to happen then it should happen.

Yes, if we went to only CC classes, the points system would need a complete rework and there would probubly need to be more classes

[mrondeau]

Getting rid of SS classes would be a mistake. If that were the case, then the CC classes would need some serious changing. Having stock cars in the same class as often heavily prepared cars would be grossly unfair to those in the stock cars. Even with the current point system. Are you going to tell me that a stock 996 is competitive against the Black Forest 914?. They both are in CC07 or a stock 986 S/ base 987 is competitive against the prepared 911's , both are CC06.

A stock car with its stock suspension and street tires is no way competitive with a prepared car with a tuned suspension and R-comps.

New people coming in with stock cars would have no chance of placing in top 3 unless they modified their cars

SS Classes were designed to keep stock classes for those who didn't want to modify or point out their cars and it kept the zone in line with PCA National Parade rules. I've always thought of the SS classes as more of a "I just want to see what the car can do, but don't really want to get competitive" class.

A stock 996 on new 200 tread wear tires and a proper alignment and corner balance with Jad Duncan or Erik Kinninger driving it should do very well in it's class, regardless of the type of cars it's running against. New people coming to an AX with stock cars or even modified cars will have no chance of placing in the top 3 unless they've got a lot of previous track experience. AX takes seat time to learn how to achieve at a higher level. A stock 986S or 987 can easily do well in the hands of a capable driver assuming proper set up and new tires. The 986S and base 987 should be as fast or faster than any of the 911's in CC06. They have better balance with a mid engine, more torque throughout the power band and bigger tires and brakes with ABS. Of course, that only works with a competitive alignment and corner balance and will need to be on new tires.

If you want to be competitive, get into a CC class and learn to outdrive your competition. If you want to go faster, learn about set up, practice more. See the AX track better, earlier, and dance your car around it better. If you're in Erik's class, resign yourself to competing for 2nd place. It doesn't matter if he's in a bone stock 996, a modified GT3 or your mom's Buick.

Finally, It's really hard to compare times in different cars, with different drivers, on varying AX tracks with a variety of conditions. Every car has it's sweet spot for set up and type of track. It's much easier to gauge that on a big track then it is at an AX track. Just keep driving and learning.

Oh yeah. The trophy's are cheap, the prize money is already in your wallet and this is just for fun and bragging rights.

[JayG]

Uh, maybe I am very wrong here, but how are you going to corner balance a car without adjustable springs?
I know a stock 986S does not have adjustable springs, nor were any available as a US factory option. I am petty sure the same is true with a 987 as well, at least a base model

With all due respect Mark, just because someone is or wants to stay in a SS class, does not mean they don't want to be competitive. Not everyone wants to mod the hell out of their car, or build a race car.
What is wrong with trying to be the best you can be with a stock car?

Does the driver make a difference, absolutely. An interesting experiment would be to see just how much faster some of the "top" drivers would be driving someone else's bone stock car than the person that owns it
Would they be faster, probably, but how much? Would an 986 S / base 987 be competitive in CC06 or a 996 in CC07 a simply by putting a better driver in it?

[jbrennen]

Does the driver make a difference, absolutely. An interesting experiment would be to see just how much faster some of the "top" drivers would be driving someone else's bone stock car than the person that owns it
Would they be faster, probably, but how much? Would an 986 S / base 987 be competitive in CC06 or a 996 in CC07 a simply by putting a better driver in it?

That experiment pretty much happened at the last event.

It was quite eye-opening for the car owner, who went on to win SS06 for his first PCA SDR class win. He would have won CC11 (!) with his result, over a couple of very good drivers.

(I took one practice run in his car, and clarified before the run that he really wanted me to drive it at 10/10ths... He said he did, and I suspect that riding passenger for that single run gave him more confidence in his car than he ever thought possible.)

just because someone is or wants to stay in a SS class, does not mean they don't want to be competitive.

Not at all -- as a matter of fact, at SCCA Solo Nationals (probably the biggest single autocross competition in the world), the Street Stock classes are probably the most competitive of all. However, just as a side note, their idea of "stock" includes things like open replacement of the exhaust downstream of the last catalytic converter, adjustable shocks and the allowable replacement of one anti-roll bar. So it's kind of like "a few light modifications allowed"... Still, winning a national championship in a class like F Street requires a ridiculous amount of skill.

[LUCKY DAVE]

Back when I was road racing motorcycles for money all the privateers complained that they could never compete against the much faster bikes the factory riders seemed to have. This was a whiny excuse that totally ignored the fact that FACTORY RIDERS RIDE FAST, and could probably whip their asses on stock street bikes.
I see this as similar to the complaint that it's impossible to be competitive in a properly classed stock street car. Nonsense. It's not the equipment that's beating you, it's faster drivers.

[mrondeau]

Corner balancing is not reliant on adjustable springs. If you haven't done everything you can to dial in your current set up, which relies on alignment, balance and all parts in at least very good condition (shocks/springs/engine and transmission mounts/sway bars/rubber and/or metal bushings, etc.), then you're car is not optimized. That holds true for a one day old GT4 or a 40 year old 911SC.

I didn't say that there were no competitive drivers in SS. I just stated what my opinion of the class is. SCCA is a very different set up and the "Stock Classes" are not comparable to our SS Classes.

If you really want to see what your car is capable of, have a hot shoe share the car with you for the day. By the end of the day, they will have figured out the handling and power characteristics and nuances of your particular car and will be able to show you more of what the car can do and advise you on what to adjust to get more out of the car. One of the biggest misconceptions is having a good driver take someone's car for single lap and having them go 1-2 seconds faster. The car owner then thinks that they're closer to the cars limits then they really are. The reality is that someone that doesn't yet "know" that car was still faster and would improve on that throughout the day. They're probably 5+ seconds faster. By sharing the car for a day, the owner has an opportunity to see what the car can really do. Jack's student got a small taste of that. Imagine what improvements he could have made with jack pushing the car and student throughout the day.

BTW, I've never gone as fast as my car can on any track at any time. There's always more time to shave off at this level. We're nowhere near the drivers that the pros are.

I should be at the next AX and would be happy to discuss this there as well. I'd volunteer to assist, but I may not be the best driver to teach someone else how to go faster in a stock car.

[Steve Grosekemper]

Uh, maybe I am very wrong here, but how are you going to corner balance a car without adjustable springs?
I know a stock 986S does not have adjustable springs, nor were any available as a US factory option. I am petty sure the same is true with a 987 as well, at least a base model

Jay you are indeed incorrect.
Every street legal US version Porsche sports car ever built is capable of being corner balanced if you know what you are doing.
Porsche made them this way because there are just too many variables in building a car and there must be a way of compensating for it.
Yes, a car with adjustable coil over shocks is the easiest car to corner balance; but far from the only one.
Everything 986 and later has a compensating shim in either 3.0mm or 6.5mm thickness that sits between the spring and spring perch.
Moving these different thicknesses around to different corners allows you to perfectly corner balance the car.
I am doing a 997S right now that came from the factory out of balance causing a slight pull.
It is only a shim change away from being perfect.

All stock torsion bar 911's adjust easily from the front and from the rear spring plate angle in the rear.
356's and water cooled 4 cylinders adjust from the rear spring plate like an early 911.
914's adjust from the front like an early 911.
All 964/993 have adjustable front spring plates.
928's have adjustable spring plates.
Some of these models have optional suspension that gives even more (easier) adjustments.

So yes, every Porsche sports car has adjustable suspension as far as corner balance is concerned.

But back to theme at hand.
You can't compare CC to SS classes and this is why.
To compare a CC to CC class the cars must both be maxed out on points; on this I think we can all agree.
A car with 502 and 549 points are in the same class but do not have the same performance potential.

There are SS01 and SS02 cars in CC04
There are CC05 cars in SS01 and SS02 and SS03!!
Check it out here http://zone8.pca.org/CarClass/Default.aspx
The SS classes are intended for new drivers with stock untouched cars.
This is really giving them a place to play and have fun, not a measure of real competition.
If you want real competition...go to the CC classes where it is 100% based on car performance.
Also if you have less than 20 autocross days you are not driving your car to its full potential anyway; don't expect to win.
I have over 200 and will still get schooled by EK if he is driving anything close to what I am driving, he is just more talented than I am.
And as far as the BF 914 is concerned. remember this is all that car is designed to do. It is not street legal and cant even time trial because of it narrow purpose.
It is for AX only and is modified to within a few points to class. 98% of the other cars can take people to work in relative comfort the next day unchanged.

And I watch what a lot of people are doing at AX.
In my opinion If you really want to win you must:
Constantly monitor tire temp, pressure and wear including heat cycles.
Have a track map in hand and make notes as to what you and others are doing.
Watch the other fast guys.
Be first to the corner workers truck so you can get the corner that gives you fits and watch who does what.
Watch other parts of the track from your station.
And study AX techniques. Talk to the best guys and read a book, it will help more than you can imagine.
And always spend your money on the freshest stickiest tires.

Or- show up and drive, catch up with friends, have a ball and get a free beer or soda at the end of the day to top it all of.

See you all at he next Ax where I will be doing the later.

[EricMarc-Aurele]

About removing SS classes: I currently am in SS02, the Zone 8 car classification site said either SS02 or CC06, I figured I haven’t modded my car so I should be in SS.

I know I’m slow, it doesn’t take a genius to figure it out when the TTOD is set by a car that’s around 60-80 horsepower down from my car and beats me by over 10 seconds.

But I got an award last autocross! Second in class! I know I would be at the bottom of CC06, but I was pleased to get my little cone sticker, my ‘modern grade school sports program’ medal.

I think having redundant classes is a little silly, and the SS classes should probably be phased out, but it might be nice to have something shiny for the newest participants. Perhaps a Novice BRI? While you have less than X events enter them into a separate BRI and give out the stickers for that. Some one could drive straight from the dealership, see how they do overall and in their class, (a bit of humbling is good) yet still leave knowing that at least they can beat another driver of similar experience. As they gain experience they lose the ability to get the participation trophy and can start comparing themselves to the big dogs in their class. (And decide if changing their car to be more equal on points is important to them or if they are just after the fun of driving as fast as they can.)

[pecivil]

man that rule on the Aero would require lots of rulers measuring at tech inspection.

if that rule change brought us the RE-71R, I have no complaints at all -- it's a wonderful tire for autocross that has probably 95% of the performance of a Hoosier while still being a reasonable street tire.

So if RE-71's have 95% of the performance of Hoosiers, why shouldn't they be pointed likewise? Perhaps basing tire points on wear ratings is becoming obsolete, if the goal is to equalize points for tires based on performance.

IDK Maybe its too hard to base it on anything else though? But when you can run a 20 pt tire that is equal in performance to a 40 point tire, do the points for tires really mean anything anymore?

IMHO, saying "just buy those tires" does not address the question of points vs performance, which is what the system is supposed to do. Right?

[Steve Grosekemper]

The aero rule will never pass because it is not reasonably enforceable for the reasons Monty mentions.

Anyone who says RE-71R's are 95% of Hoosiers has never driven a fresh set of A/R-7's in the same size back to back.
I went from 245/275 R-6 to 225/245 R-7 and gained about a second of lap time per minute.
R-7's are easily 3 seconds a minute faster than RE71's.
RE71's are about a 100 TW tire but that is the system we use as does everyone else on the planet doing what we do.

[jbrennen]

Anyone who says RE-71R's are 95% of Hoosiers has never driven a fresh set of A/R-7's in the same size back to back.
I went from 245/275 R-6 to 225/245 R-7 and gained about a second of lap time per minute.
R-7's are easily 3 seconds a minute faster than RE71's.

3 seconds a minute... 57 seconds vs. 60 seconds. 57 divided by 60 = 0.95. Aren't we saying the same thing?

[jenniferreinhardt]

I know I’m slow, it doesn’t take a genius to figure it out when the TTOD is set by a car that’s around 60-80 horsepower down from my car and beats me by over 10 seconds.

I think having redundant classes is a little silly, and the SS classes should probably be phased out, but it might be nice to have something shiny for the newest participants. Perhaps a Novice BRI?

Eric, keep up the good work and never underestimate the advantage of power-to-weight ratio of a lighter and narrower car-vs-yours at an AX. Also, play the game like the fast/smart guys do with those "cheater" sticky street tires until the rules change again. Seat time will be the ticket for you. We have lots of excellent Instructors in Caymans - which may be better for you in the beginning to physically experience the potential of your Cayman. Email the CDIs with any requests.

I agree - phase out the redundant SS classes! People can drive in Novice for the 1st 4 times. Our club does not have to follow the Zone rules - only if we have a zone event or enter in the Parade AX. The club has to pay the Zone to have a Zone event anyway.