Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

[pecivil]

Having specific points for a specific tire will be an endless quagmire.

Like trying to break SS classes down further by specific vehicle options wouldn't be? With new ones coming out year after year? Its the same thing, packaged differently.

I think we should keep SS classes because there are people who want to run in them. That should be reason enough in my book.

[JayG]

Having specific points for a specific tire will be an endless quagmire.

Like trying to break SS classes down further by specific vehicle options wouldn't be? With new ones coming out year after year? Its the same thing, packaged differently.

I think we should keep SS classes because there are people who want to run in them. That should be reason enough in my book.

actually it is different

The SS classes should be grouped by performance and when you have a specific model configuration that is definitely different performance, it should be grouped with similar performing cars
kind of why a Cayman R is in a different class than a Cayman S

[Jad]

I am just trying to give my opinion as well. I will not be using the RE71R, so I don't really care, just trying to help. I can say it seems wrong to me to take what is possibly the best street tire, and move it in class to make it a bad 'track' tire that no one would use since it would be uncompetitive against the Hoosier R7. So now the best tire for most AX cars doesn't get used at all?

I have found every few years one manufacturer makes a tire that steps of the level of performance for that type of tire. Within a year or so, others catch up or pass that tire. Trying to keep up with this moving target is impossible.

The tire is by far the most important element of getting a good time. However, the 'best' tire can vary by driving style, car dynamics, course layout, weather, etc, etc, etc. You can not account for all of these variables no matter how complex a system you create. You may create an illusion of a level field, until you actually put it into practice. I see it similar to comparing precision to accuracy. One scale may show the weight of a 100 lbs very precisely out to 5 decimal places as 110.23566 lbs, but that does not mean it is more accurate than a scale that gives the correct weight of 100 lbs only to the nearest pound.

Good luck and the sky will survive with either system.

[pecivil]

I can say it seems wrong to me to take what is possibly the best street tire, and move it in class to make it a bad 'track' tire that no one would use since it would be uncompetitive against the Hoosier R7. So now the best tire for most AX cars doesn't get used at all?

The proposal is to make them 40 point tires, not 80 point tires. To make them equal to an NT-01 or RA-1, a "nominal" 100TW tire. Definitely not Hoosiers. Maybe that was misunderstood.

You can not account for all of these variables no matter how complex a system you create. You may create an illusion of a level field, until you actually put it into practice.

No doubts about that for sure. There is no perfect system.

[Gary Burch]

We have been down this road many, many times and it is always a dead end...
There is no bigger benefit, if you have'm, or pain in the ***(why do they block out ***? what if I wanted to sell my donkey?), if you don't, than tires.
A new hot one stirs the equality pot and everyone is up in arms. Talking about redoing the rules, class system,
point modifications, etc...
Well, you know what, racing is not fair. It's about taking an advantage when and where you can and staying
within the rules. A Gill did it and now Eric K is.
Do you think if they got in your car they could go faster than you?
Stop worrying about it,and make yourself a better driver.

The only reason I support of the elimination of SS is to give Keith a break at the end of a long day

[Steve Grosekemper]

I really do think this conversation is dead end as Gary noted.
We have been here so many times.

But as to the SS question.
I think SS has been ruined over the last few years from its initial intent.
I think SS is a good idea so a car can be driven off the showroom floor and taken to and AX.
But it should be 100% stock with stock sized tires and 140TW or more unless originally equipped otherwise.

Just my 2 cents...
Going to go work on a car now so I have something to drive at the next AX.

[mrondeau]

Mark, I have no ego at the Q, I'm there to have fun, although I have won CC06 and 2nd once, a few years ago (IOW I 'm not a novice). I hope to make it to the next AX, plz ride with me and tell me where I can improve?

Roger, Come find me at the AX and I'll be happy to help within the time constraints of the event. That goes for anyone else that would like some help also.

There is always a faster way around the course. Patrick Long would shave time off of Erik's last drive using the same car. I have over 50 AX events and over 100 track days as well as PDS and instructing days in a variety of cars and I get humbled by the top drivers in this club. I am always looking for a faster line, different braking points and attempting to get the most out of whatever tires I'm running. That's in addition to occasional changes to my set up (not often enough according to Steve G. ). Unless you're Kimi ("Leave me alone, I know what I'm doing!"), you should always strive to do better.

SDR is great at teaching the basics and bringing a driver up to the Solo level. At that point, it's up to the driver to seek out additional instruction/training by approaching and asking some of the top drivers for help when they're available. That's how I learned. I've had Jad Duncan, Ralph Linares, Martin Reinhardt, Steve Grosekemper, Greg Phillips, Erik Kinninger, Dan Chambers, Chuck Sharp, Jackie Corwin, Gary Burch and others either in my car or I've been in theirs. Either way is beneficial.

I usually enjoy instructing someone at the intermediate level more than a novice. At the track, I have a policy of not taking novice drivers in my car until they have the basics down. I had to start doing this because too many drivers were trying to emulate my driving style in a car that wasn't suited to it and using a skill set that wasn't ready to do that. That usually resulted in a few wasted sessions until the student backed off and started working back up slowly using solid basics.

The bottom line is that you need to work on the nut behind the wheel until you're driving your car at it's limits. If you choose to do that in a bone stock car, as delivered, than SS is the class for you. If you want to make any changes to your car, move to CC. Seems simple, but there are some people who want to change the SS rules which IMHO, are liberal enough as it is. Regardless, whatever rule changes come out, I will figure out where my car fits best and run in that class. Spoiler alert, I was already planning on moving to another class next year.

Remember to have fun and I hope to see you at the next AX.

[rshon]

An updated version of the rules proposal document has been posted, including two new concours proposals and a new driving events proposal, as well as comments on the previous proposals to date. It can be found here:

http://www.zone8.org/assets/docs/2016/Rules/RuleProposals2017%2006-13-16.pdf

Please keep in mind that the deadline to submit new proposals is June 30, 2016, but that comments are welcome and accepted up until August 31, 2016. Please send all proposals and comments to ruleproposals@zone8.org.

Submitting comments is very important in that they help the Rules Committee in its deliberations when the proposals come for final review in September.

[JayG]

Thanks for the update Russell

One thing to bear in mind when evaluating the proposals is that they also apply to Time Trials, not just AX and some of the performance related proposals have an even bigger impact in Time Trials

[rshon]

An updated version of the rules proposal document has been posted, including a revision to Driving Event Proposal #1 and one other new driving event proposal. It can be found here:

http://www.zone8.org/assets/docs/2016/Rules/RuleProposals2017%2006-22-16.pdf

Please keep in mind that the deadline to submit new proposals is June 30, 2016, but that comments are welcome and accepted up until August 31, 2016. Please send all proposals and comments to ruleproposals@zone8.org.

[rshon]

An updated version of the rules proposal document has been posted, including a revision to Concours Event Proposal #2 and two new driving event proposals. It can be found here:

http://www.zone8.org/assets/docs/2016/Rules/RuleProposals2017%2007-11-16.pdf

This ends the submission phase of this year's rules process, which ended on June 30, 2016.

However, we are now in the comment and review phase of the process, which is just as important. Your feedback helps the Z8 Rules Committee in its deliberations at the end of summer. Comments are accepted up until August 31, 2016. Please send all comments to ruleproposals@zone8.org.


p.s. Please don't send comments on proposals that you've authored (yes, we keep track of this).

[tb911]

The committee meeting is once again "early" this year.
Revised deadline for comments is August 15.

[rshon]

TIME IS RUNNING OUT TO SUBMIT YOUR COMMENTS. ONLY ONE WEEK LEFT.

There are some fairly controversial proposals, including the elimination of SS Classes:

http://www.zone8.org/assets/docs/2016/Rules/RuleProposals2017%2007-11-16.pdf

Comments are accepted up until August 15, 2016. Your feedback helps the Z8 Rules Committee in its deliberations at the end of August. Please send all comments to ruleproposals@zone8.org.

[cag4]

I seem to recall that when I classified Katrin's '05 Boxster, I basically had the option of SS02, or CC0x. Does anyone know where that handy little chart is that would tell us where each SS class would slot into the CC classes prior to any additional modifications?

[ttweed]

I seem to recall that when I classified Katrin's '05 Boxster, I basically had the option of SS02, or CC0x. Does anyone know where that handy little chart is that would tell us where each SS class would slot into the CC classes prior to any additional modifications?

I don't think there is a single chart to show you that, Charles. There is the "Car Model List" that will show you base points and which SS class the car falls into (if it is eligible) at http://zone8.pca.org/CarClass/ViewModels.aspx, and there is the chart that shows the point levels for each CC class, with the SS classes under it at http://zone8.pca.org/CarClass/ViewClasses.aspx, but you still need to put the car into the classification system and point it out to find out what CC class you would run in. There are too many variables of tire selection and optional equipment (LSD, PASM, PDK, etc.) that might be present on an otherwise SS eligible car to declare which CC class it would run in without pointing it out using the forms on the classification site. Many CC classes are separated by only 50 points, and PASM + PDK + LSD = 55 points alone, so two cars of the same model in the same SS class could easily be required to run in different CC classes if one had all those options and the other one didn't.

HTH,
TT