Autocross map for 6/12/16

A place to hang out and discuss all things Porsche.

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby Robert Joe on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:07 pm

ttweed wrote:And I have to give a big shout out to Robert Baizer for developing our electronic app for broadcasting timing and scoring for both TT and AX. I have run a lot of events over the last 18 years with many different organizations, and no one else has such a sophisticated and efficient method of delivering real-time results to participants. TT


+1
Nice Job Robert Baizer!
The addition of announcing your previous lap time was cool!
Robert Joe
Autocrosser
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:09 pm

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby mrondeau on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:39 pm

marcus981 wrote:Andrew and I are also at an advantage by designing the track, and knowingly including some specific challenges.

Instructors also have an advantage for riding with their students for their 10-14 laps, particularly if they have more advanced students.

Instructors without assigned students also have an advantage if they ride along with other experienced drivers (or vice versa) on as many laps as they want.

My lap times improve more from these advantages compared to me driving extra laps on my own.

So, where do we draw the line for reasonable fairness for our club? I'm not suggesting we don't create a clear policy on setup test laps, but I'm just raising the point that fairness is in the eye of the beholder.


Marcus, the goal is to make it as fair as possible within the structure and needs of the event. Instructors and students are going to get more laps. They'll be driving the same amount of laps as the other drivers, but they do get to ride with each other and that's necessary for the development of the student and one of the advantages of being an instructor. Riding in another car, while educational, is not the same thing as driving your own car at speed. All of us were students at one point and benefited from having an instructor. All of us can, theoretically, become instructors and enjoy the advantage of seeing the track from our students car while doing the very important job of instructing. Depending on the skill level of your student, you may be too busy to learn much at all.

Track Designer's will always have an advantage. It's their track. Instructors may have an advantage. It's one of the perks of being an instructor and a necessary evil. Students have an advantage. They're typically in a car that's being driven more skillfully than they can drive and this can bring their skill level up.

Driving 10 laps or so the evening before the event is an advantage. This is not one that is typical due to the fact that not everyone can skip out early or take additional time to help throw the track and play afterwards. Even if they could, I imagine the stadium would put a stop to an impromptu AX with that many people after designated hours on a lot that was not rented for that purpose on that day.

As an added note, my biggest complaint about the track layout had more to do with the surface of the lot. Not much we can do about that. I thought the track flowed well and was a lot of fun. I haven't done an AX since last August and I always enjoy challenging layouts. The few issues of the track have already been noted. I look forward to seeing continuing innovation in the design of the track and applaud your use of technology to set it up that way. Keep striving for change and improvement. Just remember that not every change is an improvement. :mrgreen:
Mark Rondeau - Retired from club duties
1979 911SC #1 -Modified for track use.
2021 Toyota Tundra 4X4
User avatar
mrondeau
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1256
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby Gary Burch on Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:03 am

mrondeau wrote:Our members have either forgotten or don't know that we used to set the AX track the day of the event. The course was thrown by two people in the back of the truck while the driver followed the track map and made adjustments on the fly due to the condition of the pavement. The track was then roped by two sets of people while others set up the grid area. It seemed like we did more with less back then. This is not to take away from the current set up process or to malign any of our current volunteers. Just bringing it up for perspective.

The practice of driving the track the evening before the AX started with the PDS. We used to set up the track Saturday evening and drive it to check it out and have a little fun. This was never a problem since we had the lot rented for both days and the AX the next day was a non competitive event.


Not sure when the night before set up started, can see the advantage though. If the stadium is cool with it, it seems to make sense. The temptation to drive it is irresistible, the benefit of pre-driving it is undeniable.
Maybe the setup team should not bring their ax cars and review the track in a pickup...
Gary Burch
Club Racer
 
Posts: 691
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:42 pm

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby JERRY B on Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:09 am

I had the most laps and still finished next to last
For some weird reason I had no problem learning the track
JERRY BUMPUS
Semi Retired Autocross Chair
2004 Cayenne Turbo The Great White Beast
2006 Cayman S The Other White Car
91 944s2 aka The White Car
89 944 TAZ The Not White Car
87 944s Ka BOOOM Car sold
86 944 aka The Black Car sold
User avatar
JERRY B
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 1:52 pm
Location: THE DIDO

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby auxxcay on Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:12 am

I agree with Jennifer. As the Insurance Chair I worry that we get waivers from everyone the night before. We do have insurance as I added it last year when I found out about the practice runs. We also need to think about what happens when a neighbor complaints to the city. We do not pay for the day/night before. When we do pay we can only run from 9-5. I do hope the track set up is before 5 pm. If not we could have real problems. In any event we could end up having to pay for the party laps of a few. I think this is a dangerous precedent and should be changed. I would propose that two people, the safety chairs, run the track the night before for no more than 3 laps to check for safety. my two cents.
Cathy Young
User avatar
auxxcay
Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:19 am
Location: Carmel Valley

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby auxxcay on Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 am

It was my first time going to an AX in a long time and I was surprised by the new layout and found it very difficult. I spent most of my practice laps trying to figure out where the track was rather than trying to figure out how to drive it as fast as possible. While I like the idea of new challenges and trying new things, I'm not sure that this works. Maybe we need something halfway in between. I worry about safety of the corner workers. If you can't see the track you can drive off any which way and could be driving into a corner station without knowing it. I know I did. As a suggestion for improvement I would suggest maybe we need more cones along the way so we get a better visual idea of where the track actually is . This would help new Drivers as well and we want to bring them out and have them keep coming back and learning . Please tell me were not going to use this course design for PDS. I think it would be extremely difficult for brand-new drivers.
Cathy Young
User avatar
auxxcay
Member
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:19 am
Location: Carmel Valley

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby jenniferreinhardt on Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:21 am

+1 Cathy.

I agree that a combination of the old and new track styles at least would be more balanced than completely changing to the SCCA track style as we did.
I'm sure a lot of Drivers were frustrated and I hope not discouraged from coming back.

San Diego has always been known for producing some of the best Drivers in the Zone. Why would we want to completely change our strategy? Balance is the key.
Jennifer Reinhardt
'07 Cayman S ~ #504 CC11
Past ~ Board of Directors, AX Registration, Social, '90 964 Carrera 2, and '99 986 Boxster
User avatar
jenniferreinhardt
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:52 pm
Location: Zone 8

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby Erik K on Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:47 am

I think people need to remember, the autocross track designers have only just recently (last 3-4 events) been trying these different/SCCA style tracks, These are not the set in stone "way of the future" Just trial and error experimentations. There were GREAT reviews on the last 2 track designs, and I feel the Autocross track design team was on a "high" from these recent reviews and took Sundays track maybe to the next level? Hoping for more success and acceptance by the autocross competitors. For a VERY long time SDR tracks have been solid cones the entire track from start to finish, These new designs were a breath of fresh air. However This last events track, was the most challenging to date (Not a bad thing). The members are voicing their opinions just as we should, and I know the track design team will be taking all of these into consideration, and maybe dialing it back a little.

I really enjoyed the beginning and 2nd half sections of Sundays track, The swale crossing and very tight sections after, were tough, but as a driver you just have to adapt the best you can. I am not opposed to the "pointer cones or gates" at all, but while corner working, the radio was almost a constant buzz of "car off at Corner 5, missed a gate completely" I think someone already mentioned it on here, maybe a few move (visual guidance cones) could have helped people see the track better.


Erik Kinninger
1981 911SC
Erik K
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:54 am

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby jenniferreinhardt on Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:19 am

Erik K wrote:These are not the set in stone "way of the future" Just trial and error experimentations.

Erik Kinninger
1981 911SC


Looking back at April, May and June's AX Map original announcement postings on the forum, the announcements of the new design never indicated that this was not going to be the new track design standard for the club. And since it has been this way for 3 tracks now, it is understandable that people are questioning if we are ever going back to our old style of tracks or a mix of both.

I suggest the track designs now be posted the last day to register (Sat) and not the last day to cancel (Wed before the event). Then, people can have more time to study the map, and plan and decide if they want to attend.
Jennifer Reinhardt
'07 Cayman S ~ #504 CC11
Past ~ Board of Directors, AX Registration, Social, '90 964 Carrera 2, and '99 986 Boxster
User avatar
jenniferreinhardt
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:52 pm
Location: Zone 8

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby Erik K on Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:27 am

Jennifer, you are absolutely correct, and I think it would be a good idea for attendee's to be able to see what kind of track they will be possibly driving on, before signing up. However, as I mentioned in my last post, the last 2 tracks did indeed get rave reviews, hence the track design team continuing with these type of designs. They are NOT the future of the club, rather what the people have be enjoying lately... In the same sentence, Sunday's track may have taken the new design characteristics a little too far, so well see what type of track is designed for the next event, based on the recent events track reviews :wink:

Erik Kinninger
1981 911SC
Erik K
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:54 am

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby marcus981 on Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:37 am

Erik's comments are spot-on. Based on the feedback from a broader cross-section of AX-ers, we'll make adjustments to ensure that everyone is safe and as many drivers as possible are enjoying the track. Trying to satisfy both advanced and novice drivers is tough, and the comments on the forum don't always match the in-person feedback at the events, but we at least want to make sure everyone is safe.

Even with the vocal critics on the forum, Mark said that he received largely very positive reviews from people attending this last event.

By the way, these tracks are already a hybrid approach. If you look at the maps, you can see that approx 50% of the course is still fully coned. It's not like we went cold-turkey to a full SCCA or PCA-OCR style course. Also, over the past year, we have been introducing small sections of the track with open-style elements to see what people thought, and to start getting people used to those elements. Those individual elements were almost always people's favorites.

For those who attended the prior two AX's (April and May), Mark very clearly announced that we were trying something new, and we would take the events one and a time when deciding if we would carry this new style forward. Based on the glowing reviews from the prior two events, we that's precisely what we have done.
Marcus Kramer #591
2014 Cayman S (Agate Gray)
Equipment Team, Autocross Team, IT Support
User avatar
marcus981
Autocrosser
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby jbrennen on Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:59 am

Slight off-topic but this guy deserves a little more of a shout-out than he got on Sunday evening...

Ricardo Olimon figured the course out pretty well... Kudos to him for vaulting into the top ten times of the day after never finishing higher than 28th in the past. Marcus will come back from his little side trip to Laguna Seca and find that CC10 got a little more interesting in his absence. :)
Jack Brennen
#714
2015 Sapphire Blue Cayman GTS
https://www.facebook.com/jbrennen
User avatar
jbrennen
Autocrosser
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:45 am

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby mrondeau on Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:04 pm

marcus981 wrote: Based on the feedback from a broader cross-section of AX-ers, we'll make adjustments to ensure that everyone is safe and as many drivers as possible are enjoying the track. Trying to satisfy both advanced and novice drivers is tough, and the comments on the forum don't always match the in-person feedback at the events, but we at least want to make sure everyone is safe.


Perfect! :rockon:
Mark Rondeau - Retired from club duties
1979 911SC #1 -Modified for track use.
2021 Toyota Tundra 4X4
User avatar
mrondeau
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1256
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby marcus981 on Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:22 pm

jbrennen wrote:Slight off-topic but this guy deserves a little more of a shout-out than he got on Sunday evening...

Ricardo Olimon figured the course out pretty well... Kudos to him for vaulting into the top ten times of the day after never finishing higher than 28th in the past. Marcus will come back from his little side trip to Laguna Seca and find that CC10 got a little more interesting in his absence. :)


I totally agree. You forgot to mention that this was only his second AX in his new car. So, not only did he figure out the course, he already figured out his new Cayman S! I remember being impressed with his driving in his Macan when he was my student at one of his first AX's with our club. Even in the Macan he was already beating several Caymans, so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised at this result. Nice job Ricardo!
Marcus Kramer #591
2014 Cayman S (Agate Gray)
Equipment Team, Autocross Team, IT Support
User avatar
marcus981
Autocrosser
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: Autocross map for 6/12/16

Postby JayG on Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:33 pm

I'll throw in my 2 cents for what it's worth....

Personally, I thought it was a really good and fun track. Challenging at times, but fun nevertheless

One thing to consider is that very few of our newer drivers are on this forum, so the comments are very skewed toward to the old guard.

Comments have been made that drivers in the Red group had difficulty staying on course. I would submit that is a driver issue not the track.
If you are missing gates, you are either not paying attention or simply going too fast. I know in during my corner working session, there was more that one driver in the red group that missed the same corner every run.
I thought that there was a new rule that if you go off course at the same spot in 2 consecutive runs, you had to have an instructor ride with you the next run. Either that didn't apply to those drivers, or ???

As far as the new open design, I was speaking with someone who commented that at one of the OC events a bunch of experienced SDR drivers were DNF because they could not stay on the course.
I would submit that we have been spoiled with such heavily coned AX tracks that they are little more than a road course in a parking lot.

IMHO, I prefer the new open courses. They are a bit more challenging and require more attention. Both good things.
Last edited by JayG on Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Jay Gedanken
Sliding down the slippery slope..
2004 986 S #990 (sold)
2004 996 Targa
User avatar
JayG
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:29 pm
Location: Lago Vista, TX & Palm Speings

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 94 guests