PCASDR Autocross “Track Walk” vs “ Parade Laps” Poll

[JERRY B]

This is what KILLED the parade lap In each group, Back in my days forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4572&p=33634#p33634
I always thought it was a good idea for the instructor to take a slow lap with a new student. Soo they dont scare the hell out of them.

[mrondeau]

I prefer a track walk. I like to look at the layout, pick out trouble spots, figure out approach angles and socialize. I find the parade laps to be horribly slow and not very informative. For the first two laps, I felt like I was stuck on the 805. I understand the concept, but think that novice drivers get more out of a proper track walk, like we do at the PDS, then they will playing follow the leader at slow speeds on the track.

Most novices are just following the car ahead of them, which is another student driving off line, slowly. Better drivers can pick up tips by hanging around the track walk leader or they can walk at their own pace. It can be done in about the same amount of time as the parade laps as long as there is someone watching the clock and moving them along. Keith Verlaque, Dan Chambers and others have always done an excellent job with this as it usually fell to the CDI's to handle it.

I do like that we keep trying new things. In this case, I don't think it's an improvement.

[Cajundaddy]

We used to do a track walk, then each run group did a parade lap before actual runs started

It's been a while since I AXed at the "Q" but I remember this combination being effective.

I also remember my first SDR track walk back in 2007 or so. After a few minutes I turned to my instructor and said "WHO IS THIS GUY!?!?"
"Oh that's just Keith V, you'll get used to him. "

I did!

[ks9146]

Ok, so one thing that I have been told at every drivers training program is "look ahead". Even having one very popular SCCA program, put tape on the bottom section of the windshield to make you look up. As a new driver, the tendency is to look right in front of the car. With sitting in a line of cars, I was unable to see the course ahead of the car in front of me. This does not allow me to really determine the correct line. I also get alot more out of walking the course, since I can look at any section of the course from both directions.

If the concern about the survey is that it might be biased by the person that created it, then have the autocross team put together a "survey monkey" and send it out. Maybe put together several questions around multiple concerns or issues. The autocross team could get a more unbiased response and maybe some data they can act upon.

Only way to continue to have GREAT events is to be open to the possibility that things could be done different.

[Andrew Raines]

The track drive cannot provide a good view of the track to the students because the other cars block the view of the cones and rest of the course. I can only speculate why they like it, which is they are more comfortable with their instructor one on one. Again, just a guess.

I prefer the track walk but I walked it by myself because I had the same issue on the track walk, i.e. I couldn't see the course in a mass of 80 people. The mass of people blocked my view. So I walked in a small group or by myself.

My suggestion is to have 3 types of walks. (1) Student / Instructor one on one walks. (2) Group with a leader talking about the course (3) the rest of us.

Personally, I would give up a practice lap to return to the track walk.

[cag4]

Personally, I would give up a practice lap

Blasphemy! But I agree with everything else... really prefer the track walk.

Charles

[ttweed]

Personally, I would give up a practice lap

Blasphemy! But I agree with everything else... really prefer the track walk.

Charles

I'm with Andrew. I routinely give up the 5th lap in the second practice session in order to check pressure gains in the tires and reset them for the maximum I want to see in timed runs. I would happily go back to a 4-4-4 lap format if it meant we would get a track walk AND a single parade lap on our first session.

TT

[martinreinhardt]

I'm with Andrew. I routinely give up the 5th lap in the second practice session in order to check pressure gains in the tires and reset them for the maximum I want to see in timed runs. I would happily go back to a 4-4-4 lap format if it meant we would get a track walk AND a single parade lap on our first session.

TT

I do the same thing by running 4-4-4 to try and simulate timed run conditions for tire pressures. It also saves tire wear, especially with a shared car.

[kleggo]

What I'd really like to see is the return of the traditional morning "track walk" instead of the newer "parade laps" ! - The parade laps are an embarrassment and I think we tried it for long enough to know that it doesn't work. From my understanding, nobody in the Zone runs "parade laps" at autocross events. I certainly have never seen it in the 15+ years autocrossing.

The autocross "track walk" offers many benefits over the "parade laps" such as: sweeping the track, removing debris, marking unmarked cones, camaraderie, socializing, morning walk, studying and comparing different driving lines with your fellow drivers, finding the better pavement to drive on, finding braking points, etc.

I certainly do not think that the parade laps are an embarrassment, but I highly prefer a track walk to a parade lap.

Craig

[Robert Joe]

I don't know why you would have to give up practice runs to get a track walk. IF we were to go back to track walk, it would occur before the drivers meeting which is the norm for all AX clubs. We all get there before 7:15am. That leaves 1 hr 45 mins to complete registration, walk the track and have a drivers meeting. That is plenty of time.

[marcus981]

I understand now that Martin's "embarrassment" comment was probably referring to the especially slow speed of this most recent event's parade laps. The higher attendance this time was probably the main cause, since the prior events only occasionally had issues of a backup near the finish.

I like elements of both. After several discussions with people at the events, I had the impression that newer drivers liked the parade laps better. Also, as an instructor, having the ability to interact one-on-one with my student well before 9am is very valuable, as is the ability to correct some of their driving line errors on-the-fly while going relatively slowly. One parade lap prior to the run session would be better than nothing. It is nice to be able to run more than one slow lap to give the student a chance to learn and adapt and implement the changes. My opinion is that student learning modalities are better served by reasonable speed parade laps, rather than having students try to apply the different sensory inputs from a track walk to suddenly driving the track in a normal practice run.

For experienced competitors trying to optimize their own lap time, there doesn't seem to be much question that a track walk is better for all of the reasons previously stated. I wasn't voicing what I personally like best to be competitive. I was voicing what I believed was the perspective of most newer students (based on discussions and show-of-hands) and at least some instructors to make sure their interests aren't lost in the discussion.

Mark Curran is aware of all of this feedback, as well as all of the in-person feedback he has received about the parade laps vs. track walk. I know how stressed he is to stay on schedule in the morning, since most people value driving as many at-speed laps as possible throughout the day, which means we have to start on time. He'll obviously decide what he thinks best serves the club.

[marcus981]

I don't know why you would have to give up practice runs to get a track walk. IF we were to go back to track walk, it would occur before the drivers meeting which is the norm for all AX clubs. We all get there before 7:15am. That leaves 1 hr 45 mins to complete registration, walk the track and have a drivers meeting. That is plenty of time.

Robert,

On paper, it might seem like we have that much time in the morning, but unfortunately we have a few complications:

• On the days with morning-of track setups (3 out of the past 4 events), we're still hustling to finish setting up and verifying the track right up to the point of the driver's meeting. People walking the track will interfere with that effort, and they won't be seeing the final track configuration anyway.
• The safety chairs will also be driving their check laps and making safety adjustments/recommendations sometime during that time window. The safety chairs obviously can't drive the track while anyone is walking it.

I'm not saying there isn't a solution to these challenges, but we would have to come up with a different procedure to somehow avoid those issues. Asking the AX team and safety chairs to get up even earlier in the morning than they already do isn't a good solution, but we're willing to hear other suggestions.

[jenniferreinhardt]

For experienced competitors trying to optimize their own lap time, there doesn't seem to be much question that a track walk is better for all of the reasons previously stated. I wasn't voicing what I personally like best to be competitive. I was voicing what I believed was the perspective of most newer students (based on discussions and show-of-hands) and at least some instructors to make sure their interests aren't lost in the discussion.

Marcus and Andrew,

I really appreciate your level-headedness and dedication in your quest for great track designs and running the event smoothly!

I understand that you think the parade laps best serve the less experienced, and the track walk the more experienced. And we have heard, though limited in number, both opinions on this thread. Your dedication to the newer students is commendable.

Mark Curran is aware of all of this feedback, as well as all of the in-person feedback he has received about the parade laps vs. track walk. I know how stressed he is to stay on schedule in the morning, since most people value driving as many at-speed laps as possible throughout the day, which means we have to start on time. He'll obviously decide what he thinks best serves the club.

The AX Drivers and the Board deserve to be a part of the Autocross Hierarchy. It is not a matter of micro managing by the Board, or stepping on Chair Persons' toes.

One Person's role and thoughts as AX Chair, does not give him the sole right to decide to take away an established Club tradition. And, it sounds like impromptu feedback has been considered. If this aristocratic power is authorized to be wielded, then so be it. The People have lost. However, it is well noted that the Drivers are putting their thoughts on these AX posts these last few days in an effort to have all of the People's voices counted - not just one group, and not decided by one person.

[marcus981]

One Person's role and thoughts as AX Chair, does not give him the sole right to decide to take away an established Club tradition. And, it sounds like impromptu feedback has been considered. If this aristocratic power is authorized to be wielded, then so be it. The People have lost. However, it is well noted that the Drivers are putting their thoughts on these AX posts these last few days in an effort to have all of the People's voices counted - not just one group, and not decided by one person.

That's a little melodramatic, and it doesn't give Mark much credit for the outstanding way he has handled his difficult role. You are certainly welcome to express opinions, but I think most AXers (not just the fraction that read the forum) would find your apparent outrage about the three topics recently raised (parade laps, test drives, track style) to be a little surprising. If you don't think Mark is doing a good job of exceeding the expectations of the vast majority of AX participants, you certainly have the right to raise those concerns with the board. I personally think he's done a great job of weighing all of the different input he receives (not just a few vocal forum members) in order to make his well-informed decisions, and he has also kept the board informed and sought their approval along the way. That's not the sign of someone wielding "aristocratic power."

[jenniferreinhardt]

One Person's role and thoughts as AX Chair, does not give him the sole right to decide to take away an established Club tradition. And, it sounds like impromptu feedback has been considered. If this aristocratic power is authorized to be wielded, then so be it. The People have lost. However, it is well noted that the Drivers are putting their thoughts on these AX posts these last few days in an effort to have all of the People's voices counted - not just one group, and not decided by one person.

That's a little melodramatic, and it doesn't give Mark much credit for the outstanding way he has handled his difficult role. You are certainly welcome to express opinions, but I think most AXers (not just the fraction that read the forum) would find your apparent outrage about the three topics recently raised (parade laps, test drives, track style) to be a little surprising. If you don't think Mark is doing a good job of exceeding the expectations of the vast majority of AX participants, you certainly have the right to raise those concerns with the board. I personally think he's done a great job of weighing all of the different input he receives (not just a few vocal forum members) in order to make his well-informed decisions, and he has also kept the board informed and sought their approval along the way. That's not the sign of someone wielding "aristocratic power."

All I've been trying to say all along is that AX Drivers want to have a say in decision making as proven on this forum in the last few days.


As one last add on and then I will stop any further posts, I am sorry to the Members if I have been too intense and melodramatic . I feel so strongly about making sure that all Drivers are treated fairly in their wants, needs and in a fair competition. So, that is why I am very assertive and vocal on these matters. Let's go Racing!