Poll new track design

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Poll new track design

Postby auxxcay on Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:25 am

I'm interested in other people's views on the new track layout. It's my first time going to an AX in a long time and I was surprised by the new layout and found it very difficult. I spent most of my practice laps trying to figure out where the track was rather than trying to figure out how to drive it as fast as possible. While I like the idea of new challenges and trying new things, I'm not sure that this works. Maybe we need something halfway in between. I worry about safety of the corner workers. If you can't see the track you can drive off any which way and could be driving into a corner station without knowing it. I know I did. As a suggestion for improvement I would suggest maybe we need more cones along the way so we get a better visual idea of where the track actually is . This would help new Drivers as well and we want to bring them out and have them keep coming back and learning . Please tell me were not going to use this course design for PDS. I think it would be extremely difficult for brand-new drivers.

On another note, this new track design makes it even more unfair that those who set job the track the night before get to drive it multiple times and learn the track before those of us show up the next day. I'm not sure what time of day they're setting the track up but driving cars on the track after 5 PM could get us in trouble with the city. We don't pay to rent the track the day before and if there's too much activity and or noise on the track people living nearby might complain about the noise and we could be charged for those extra laps for a few people. I know the comment is "well anybody can come out the night before and help and then you can drive the track too" but is that what we are really all about?
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Re: Poll new track design

Postby martinreinhardt on Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:07 am

I agree. I amost got run over twice during my corner-working session.
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Re: Poll new track design

Postby pecivil on Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:34 am

I agree. I amost got run over twice during my corner-working session


As did Jim Binford and I. It was close enough to be scary.
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Re: Poll new track design

Postby marcus981 on Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:18 am

Monte and Martin,
Please let me know where you guys were corner working, so we can understand how that happened in order to avoid that exposure in the future. We absolutely don't want to cause any safety issues, and we have been consulting with the corner working chair before each event to try to ensure we can identify safe locations for corner working stations. I have even offered to create a wall or circle of cones around certain stations to make sure that lost drivers don't stray anywhere close to corner workers.

Cathy,
Robert Joe made a good post about this style of course. It does take a couple of times to get used to it, but I agree with his statement that it is ultimately more fun and enhances driver learning.

The most recent PDS AX course (March 2016) used every single cone that we own (including 100 recently purchased additional cones at my request). At the prior PDS AX (fall 2015), I saw students drive off course in areas that made absolutely no sense, which clearly signaled that they were only looking one cone ahead. We debated if that was a good learning experience, but I opted for extra insurance and filled in every gap in every turn to minimize PDS students driving off. At the AX that was two weeks after the PDS, I did precisely the same thing. You can look back in the forum and see that several very experienced drivers complained about there being too many cones on that course. That's when we decided to try this new hybrid style starting for the April AX, and it was very well received by virtually everyone.

I understand that the course design from this past weekend may have been a little too open or too challenging or possibly a little dangerous for folks not yet used to this style, so we will certainly take that into account when planning the next course.

I bet that you would hear a much more vocal protest if we now decided to go back to a fully coned course style, so I encourage you to give it another try, and possibly consider also checking out a PCA-OCR event. They use a fraction of the cones that we use on even the past three open courses, so it takes some concentration to learn their courses, but they are very rewarding once you finally get it. The El Toro airfield is also a great venue (much different from the Q) and they run a good event.
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Re: Poll new track design

Postby sf.in.sd on Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:54 pm

I like the variety of challenging courses we have been getting and applaud all the thought that has went into design (kudos to Marcus and Andrew), and slight redesign as the course has to be laid out on some of the worst asphalt anywhere (kudos to entire AX team)! :beerchug:
Minor point: it would be nice to have an announcement at the drivers meeting if there are big (define big?) changes from printed map. I think there was an extra gate last time and there are often differences in number of slalom cones.

Everyone needs to be careful in large cone-free regions, even experienced corner workers. Looking ahead doesn't help if drivers look ahead to the wrong cones. In the morning, there were several drivers that drove straight up the hill to the back straight (by Budweiser sign), cutting out the entire back corner of the track (where there is usually a hairpin). Confused drivers don't know when they should come to a complete stop. One thing that might help define the track for both drivers and worker would be a lot more downed cones. Perhaps an entire line, or 3 sides of a box in places.

It was very difficult to make sure cars were on the correct sign of the cones during timed runs, and many times they weren't. I know I called in a lot more DNFs than ever this last Sunday. It would be interesting to see if that metric was way up in general.
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Re: Poll new track design

Postby marcus981 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:12 pm

Thanks for the inputs Shawn,

That is a good idea to announce any deviations from the printed maps at the drivers meeting. I can take it a step farther and also use markers to edit the two large driving line maps that we post on the tables to illustrate any changes (might be hard to simply verbalize certain changes). We also occasionally make tweaks throughout the day due to asphalt breakup. People can then refer to the large maps prior to timed runs to make sure they are aware of any updates since their latest practice run.

Typically the printed maps are a pretty good match though, especially when we set up the day before. I actually don't print the maps until I get home from track setup, so I can make any last minute updates before printing. But, since I was out of town for this one, I had to print them days in advance.

We'll make an effort to include more directional cones too, especially as people are still getting used to the more open style. Watching Mark Rondeau's video, I can see where some added directional cones may have been helpful to reduce the number of lost drivers and DNFs.
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Re: Poll new track design

Postby gdsmithmd on Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:33 pm

My first time back to a driving event in many years. It was great to see old friends and meet some of the newer members. Designing a track takes a lot of time, as I learned from 3 years as AX chair. We tried doing some more open tracks to provide more creativity in lines, but ran into some of the same issues of drivers becoming disoriented. I was embarrassed by how long it took me to figure out where the track was over by corner stations 4 and 5, in fact was lambasted on my first lap for not stopping when I went off track. The problem is I had no idea that I had run off the track! It wasn't until I went out corner working and heard the repeated calls from 4 and 5 about drivers going off track that I realized I wasn't alone. If that many people are having the same problem then I respectfully submit that there was a fundamental problem in the design of that portion of the track and a big safety issue. An autocross isn't supposed to be an exercise in navigation. One option to keep the track open to different lines while keeping the track visually defined is by setting the small cones in the traditional manner but making the track wider in selected corners. Another idea may be to have the safety chair go out with a driver who hasn't seen the course yet before the driver's meeting and run a few laps to see if there may be a problem. I know that in the past I had to have sections altered after the safety chair ran the course usually because he felt my straights were too long or corners too fast. I learned you have to design for the novice if you want to be safe while still making it challenging for more experienced drivers, no easy task.

Overall I think the track design itself was very creative when viewed as it was intended on the map, but clearly there is a lesson here that less (ie fewer cones) isn't always better. I was also verrry impressed with how well the event ran and how many laps we got in, especially with >120 participants. It ain't easy. The team work was extraordinary. Kudos to all.

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Re: Poll new track design

Postby marcus981 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:53 pm

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your valuable input based on your past experience. I hope to meet you at the next AX.

I agree that the design could have been altered and/or more directional cones added to the last course based on the number of people that apparently struggled to stay on course. We're taking all of this feedback into consideration for future events.

We have actually been implementing your suggestion about widening select portions of the track for at least the past year or so, and that usually works out well, giving people more freedom to chose their line through that area. During that time, we also experimented with introducing one or two open elements into several of those tracks, and those elements were almost always well-received. That is one of the reasons (along with people complaining about too many cones previously) that led us to expanding the use of open elements in the past three events. Those first two events had more positive feedback than this most recent event, so we're learning what people liked and didn't like. We'll certainly make the necessary adjustments to make sure people are having a fun and safe AX. Thanks again for sharing your advice.

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Re: Poll new track design

Postby niche on Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:12 pm

I loved the new track designs, but I can see how people feel more vulnerable corner working.
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Re: Poll new track design

Postby mtcurran on Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:25 am

The track design for the past three Autocross events has been different than the traditional layouts. The feedback from the participants about the new designs, has been positive if not over the top positive. We, the AX Team, have had to help a small percentage of the registered drivers find their way around the newer different tracks, but once they find their way, they love the tracks. The last event allowed time for 5 Track Tour laps, prior to 9 AM, that should have provided enough exposure for each driver to see the track. The Track Map that is posted several days before the event is an approximate representation of what the track will be on AX Day. Changes to the track have to be made at the last minute often for safety concerns and surface conditions ( the added gate is an example of a solution to satisfy the Safety Chairmen ). And I agree that the added gate was the right decision. It was added at 8 PM on Saturday. The maps were already printed. The close calls at the last event were not due to the track design or improper Corner Working Station location, but a couple isolated driver/instructor miscommunications that as the AX Chairman, I will keep a closer eye on in the future to ensure the safety of my Corner Workers. Thank you for the feedback. Keep it coming.
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Re: Poll new track design

Postby gulf911 on Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:35 pm

As a quick note , I have driven PCA OCR tracks and you cannot follow them at times either. And my only .02 would be trying to find the track should not be part of
driving the course. It should be clearly marked , and I would highly doubt you would hear complaints if you used more cones spaced properly to mark the course. :D
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