Ax Photos

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Re: Ax Photos

Postby marcus981 on Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:11 pm

Thanks all for the inputs about the directional and pointer cones. I can understand people hitting some pointer cones (the ones right next to a standing cone), but we intentionally put the directional cones (three laying down) far off-line, so I'm a little surprised that any of those got hit. Calling a DNF for people that hit those or go beyond those may be fine, although I don't know if it's necessary, since the driver would have to be so far off line, they couldn't possibly get a good time. We can discuss and clarify for the future though.
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Re: Ax Photos

Postby ScandinavianFlick on Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:17 pm

marcus981 wrote:I can understand people hitting some pointer cones (the ones right next to a standing cone), but we intentionally put the directional cones (three laying down) far off-line, so I'm a little surprised that any of those got hit.


It took a special kind of idiot :lol: :oops:
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Re: Ax Photos

Postby ttweed on Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:36 pm

jbrennen wrote:Agreed, and especially because folks like me who come from SCCA events may have heard that directional and pointer cones do not count for penalties.

Yes, SCCA national rules specify directional and pointer cones as not counting as penalties, only the upright pylon cones are counted. However, directional and barrier cones can count as DNF if ignored and 4 wheels go outside specified course boundaries.

Our Zone 8 rules are different, though. This is what they say:

If cones are used to mark the course, the penalty for hitting a cone during a
timed run is an additional two (2) seconds per cone added to the applicable
lap time. If a competitor knocks over a pylon or moves it completely
outside its outline, the penalty will be incurred. All pylons will have the
same penalty. The Event Chairperson is responsible for ensuring that
participants understand what cones are included as course markers. Grid
and pre-grid cones may count if that is announced prior to timed runs.
Four wheels off the designated course will constitute a DNF (did not
finish). Four wheels off in a warm-up or cool-down lap will result in the
first or last timed run being declared a DNF, respectively.


According to this, the Event Chairman could specify that pointer and directional cones are not penalized, but traditionally (in the past), all cones that are used on our PCA courses and marked with a box have been considered course markers and included in penalties if displaced. The staging lane cones adjacent to the start and the braking run-off area cones immediately after the finish have been included. Pre-grid cones have often been ignored, especially in the multiple lane area where people may be slowly changing lanes or pulling on and off the course during staging or between runs, but all of this could be at the discretion of the Event Chair according to the rules.

Since the three pointer cones were collected while the car was sideways, it's pretty much academic whether it was a one-cone penalty, a four-cone penalty, or a DNF. That run was a throwaway.
Yes, with the level of competition in most classes, a single cone penalty pretty much destroys your run as far as being competitive. There might be a case where that isn't true, though, so we should clarify this issue for all drivers and apply it consistently.

A car hit one standing cone, and that was all that the car hit. But the standing cone was deflected into another standing cone and knocked it out of its box. I called it as a two cone penalty, which I assume is the correct interpretation.
That is exactly the way I would have called it.

AX Chairs are welcome to chime in here and correct any misconceptions, or establish a "new norm" for future events as desired. I don't really care about what the details of the "cone penalty rules" are as long as they are openly communicated and understood by all.

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Re: Ax Photos

Postby ttweed on Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:55 pm

marcus981 wrote:Thanks all for the inputs about the directional and pointer cones. I can understand people hitting some pointer cones (the ones right next to a standing cone), but we intentionally put the directional cones (three laying down) far off-line, so I'm a little surprised that any of those got hit.
When they were hit, the car was already out of control from a previous mistake, which was carried further down the course to the boundary cones.

Calling a DNF for people that hit those or go beyond those may be fine, although I don't know if it's necessary, since the driver would have to be so far off line, they couldn't possibly get a good time. We can discuss and clarify for the future though.

If the car doesn't proceed all the way outside the cones with all 4 wheels, I wouldn't call it a DNF. I would, however, call in a penalty for any cone knocked outside it's box, though, whether vertical or horizontal. If the corner worker is going to have to replace something to restore the course for the next driver passing through, there should be a penalty, by my thinking, so as not to encourage such activity.
ScandinavianFlick wrote:It took a special kind of idiot :lol: :oops:

Andrew-- you weren't the only one!

TT
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Re: Ax Photos

Postby jbrennen on Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:58 pm

ttweed wrote:If the corner worker is going to have to replace something to restore the course for the next driver passing through, there should be a penalty, by my thinking, so as not to encourage such activity.


Best reasoning I've heard. :)
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Re: Ax Photos

Postby cag4 on Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:18 pm

Just to add my congrats to the auto-cross team for another great event!

I'll also point out that CC-09 1st/2nd was separated by 0.01 of a second between Herb Meeder's set-up '99 Boxster and my '70 911 hotrod, so this course seemed really fair to all comers. And it was great fun too!

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Re: Ax Photos

Postby ttweed on Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

cag4 wrote:I'll also point out that CC-09 1st/2nd was separated by 0.01 of a second between Herb Meeder's set-up '99 Boxster and my '70 911 hotrod...

Wow, Charles, that was a close one! BTDT. I lost TTOD to Mark K. in the July event last year by .01 sec. I coned away my best run and had to stand on my second best. Definitely a heartbreaker. Leaves you wondering what you might have done to go just .02 faster... :cry:

I saw there was another .01 sec. battle in CC08 for 2nd and 3rd between Jim B. and Bill I. It was nice to see Tami and Bill out at an AX again in their 968! :rockon:

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Re: Ax Photos

Postby JayG on Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:36 pm

ttweed wrote:
cag4 wrote:I'll also point out that CC-09 1st/2nd was separated by 0.01 of a second between Herb Meeder's set-up '99 Boxster and my '70 911 hotrod...

Wow, Charles, that was a close one! BTDT. I lost TTOD to Mark K. in the July event last year by .01 sec. I coned away my best run and had to stand on my second best. Definitely a heartbreaker. Leaves you wondering what you might have done to go just .02 faster... :cry:

I saw there was another .01 sec. battle in CC08 for 2nd and 3rd between Jim B. and Bill I. It was nice to see Tami and Bill out at an AX again in their 968! :rockon:

Tt


And let's not forget me beating my son Chad by .02 in SS02 me taking 2nd. Man was he pissed!!!
I think I may be in trouble at the next AX, Chad's last one before he start college.

It was a great fun AX track.
Kudos to Marcus and Andrew
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Re: Ax Photos

Postby Ryan McClune on Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:05 pm

Great track and great fun on a beautiful Sunday.

The AX team really continues to impress me.

You all do such a great job while quietly, yet confidently, adapting to the club's continued input. :rockon:

Speaking of those close calls, Jim Binford is really getting used to that Cayman S and driving it very well. :burnout:

I really thought he had me on Sunday in CC08 after practice runs.
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Re: Ax Photos

Postby jbrennen on Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:10 am

Ryan McClune wrote:Speaking of those close calls, Jim Binford is really getting used to that Cayman S and driving it very well. :burnout:

I really thought he had me on Sunday in CC08 after practice runs.


I had the same thought about Ricardo at the previous event in CC10. I'll give you a hint... New tires will buy you a little time... :lol:
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Re: Ax Photos

Postby mtcurran on Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:19 am

Hello Everyone,
Thank you Marcus for explaining the placement of the green cone near the bottom of the straight. It was the simplest and least upsetting solution to asphalt break up, accomplished while the track was hot, avoiding holding start. The other option would have been to move track sections leading into and exiting the area while altering the swale crossing. This would have shut down the track for 30 to 60 minutes. Thank you Jack for the kind words regarding my driving.
If a car goes 4 wheels beyond directional cones it is off track. DNF
If a car misses driving through a box or chute. DNF
If a car knocks a directional cone out of its' chalk outline. 2 second penalty
If a car knocks a cone out of its' chalk outline and that cone knocks another cone out of its' chalk outline. 4 second penalty
If a car knocks a cone out of its' chalk outline as it's leaving Start. 2 second penalty
If a car knocks a cone out of its' chalk outline after crossing finish. 2 second penalty
We typically chalk the cones after finish for the straight shut down stretch, once you turn and enter grid for your next lap the cones are not chalked. I do not see the need nor do we have the man/woman power to monitor cones in grid. No penalty for knocking cones over in grid.
Any questions or suggestions, contact me anytime.
Kind regards,
Mark
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Re: Ax Photos

Postby John Straub on Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:48 pm

Thanks for all your hard work, Mark! Guys like you keep the club going!

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