PCA SDR

Change in itself is not a bad thing. But, it should be an improvement. I'd like to suggest that we stop using the confusing "open box" SCCA-ish features in the AX tracks. You can leave room for line interpretation while still using the standard upright cones on the left and right side of the track. I saw one very experienced driver literally almost come to a stop because he couldn't "read" the track. I had trouble as well. I don't believe it's helpful that newer drivers should have to solve the mystery of where the track is while they're trying to learn where the line is. Make sense?
...oh, and no more cones that are already knocked over......they make me really nervous. "I swear, I didn't hit that cone! It was already laying down!"
CHEERS!

Hi Tim,

Thanks for your feedback. It would be interesting to get your impression after a couple more events. Looks like you've only done one AX with us in the last two years. We've had a few other experienced folks that said it took them a couple of events to get used to the open elements, and now the vast majority of the feedback is very positive. In the last two events alone, I had multiple people come up to me to say that those were among their favorite tracks of all time.

Marcus

The track layout (shape) was fine. I dig your tracks. You can tell that you're a driver. Trying to find it was the bad part. I'll attend more AX's and we'll see. Can we at least stand all the cones up? You don't need pointing cones if the track layout is clear, right?

The hybrid tracks that we have been introducing over the past year have been very well received. The overall feedback (95% plus) has been extremely positive from month to month. The designs allow for various driving lines depending on driver skill, car, car setup, driver imagination, risk/reward, instructor feedback, and watching how drivers attack the track while corner working. The map that is provided at the beginning of the event is almost spot on to the track that is driven on that day. Slight alterations might occur due to asphalt breakup after the map has been posted. The Safety Chairmen often require us to make changes to the track in the morning prior to going Green. Studying the map and paying close attention to the track layout during the Track Tour is highly recommended. Also, driving the first practice session at 6/10s until the track is learned is a good idea. Cones on their side indicating direction is sometimes required by the Safety Chairmen and sometimes part of our original design to help drivers find their way through the course. It takes some getting used to after driving fully coned tracks for many years, but we have found that these new hybrid tracks offer more rewarding challenges for the participants and we would not continue this direction if the feedback was negative.
Kind regards,
Mark

While I havent been there in a long time either , I have done dozens of SDR ax's. And I will say in no uncertain terms "Trying to figure out where the track is " should not be part of the experience or
part of the challenge IMHO. Unless you want to make the same layout every event.
I did an event in El Toro and while they have a lot of real estate and some of the track is followable , the large area with a few 4 cone gates with 1 pointing cone spread way apart at speed you lose
where the track is. I have always appreciated the Q and SDR's layouts and you could follow the track easily...

Hey Dan, Congratulations on your new car!

Breaking News from Wikileaks…

There were concerns about the new track design, elimination of the track walk and extra laps driven by the track set-up team. After some pushing, this finally got to the level of a Board Meeting. Our current President decided to let the AX Chairs continue to do as they see fit. So it is a moot point.

Personally after 100 plus autocrosses with PCASDR, I don’t enjoy the new tracks as much, or the event format with the elimination of the track walk. The tracks feel artificial and have become more of a survival type course. The last event I attended, I was top time of the day and still didn't fully enjoy it. The fun flowing tracks, and track walk camaraderie are lacking IMO. I came from SCCA because PCASDR had better tracks, but that is no longer the case.

Although the Chairs said they would poll the Drivers for a formal evaluation of opinions, this has not been done. Also, since there are so many newer Drivers without much experience on the old format, they really wouldn’t be able to give an accurate opinion.

I miss the good old days, but we had a lot of good times.

gulf911 wrote:While I havent been there in a long time either , I have done dozens of SDR ax's. And I will say in no uncertain terms "Trying to figure out where the track is " should not be part of the experience or
part of the challenge IMHO. Unless you want to make the same layout every event.
I did an event in El Toro and while they have a lot of real estate and some of the track is followable , the large area with a few 4 cone gates with 1 pointing cone spread way apart at speed you lose
where the track is. I have always appreciated the Q and SDR's layouts and you could follow the track easily...

I would disagree that figuring out the track should not be part of the experience and challenge, it very much is

learning where to go is part of driving the track. They tracks we have been privileged to have are well designed.

I think the varied track layouts are great. They are fun and challenging. Sometimes you just have to take you time and put in a little effort to find the best line and understand where to go.

Many many years ago I did AX when I was in college back in the DC area and the tracks we had were on spaces around 25% the size of the west lot and in order to be longer than 30-45 seconds you had to loop through 2-3 times with direction changes. Those were very confusing and often over 50% of the runs were off course. Our tracks, even with open areas are not that confusing.

new thinking never goes unpunished
the new track designs have matured into a really nice flowing design.
there were some hiccups In the begining but much better now
if you give them a chance and start slowly you will be rewarded
I do miss the track walks

Dan is a top driver and I don't think he needs help. Here he is with his new car

Can someone please take that pic away from martin!!

For the record, I am firmly in the camp that really enjoys the "open" course elements.

I have attended nearly all the AX's for over two years now and am having more fun than ever.

Credit really is due for Marcus and Andrew, who are working within the limits of the lot, and providing new and fresh track designs each month.

The open track elements reward looking ahead and building speed gradually, something that all newcomers and students should be focusing on, heavily.

I think they also encourage "chalk talk" at the map table and discussions about how different folks are approaching the sections that are open to interpretation.

I do think the new track designs don't allow you to approach a "perfect, mistake-free lap" quite like they did previously, but that is certainly part of the fun and have allowed those who have the best comprehension and driving day to be in the TTOD and BRI conversation.

The track-walk element is something that I do miss and I am reminded at each PDS when we actually do conduct a track walk.

Following is a list of tracks with an 'open' box format....






To look ahead and really see the line and course, an open lot isnt the way. While the student is already learning : heel and toe , braking , apex , turn in , track out etc etc etc
not being able to see the course isnt a benefit IMO. It saves cones granted. I've driven both gentleman , open box, and coned course since the 80's (yes I am old) coned
is better IMHO. Try it and then see what feed back there is. Just a thought.

I've heard that OCR autocrosses were extended another year. So since the track designs are similar, the bonus is the better condition of the surface, great trophies, and they still have track walks, plus being closer for you.

I think some people are confused regarding my point about finding the track vs. finding the line. Finding the best line for your car is a big part of the challenge and is expected. Trying to see or find out where the track actually goes should not be part of the challenge. You can design the exact same, nicely flowing track without making it confusing, which is counter productive to learning the line, especially for new drivers. Let's see how it goes, but I'd prefer one standing cone on the right for each one on the left.

Tim Comeau wrote:I think some people are confused regarding my point about finding the track vs. finding the line. Finding the best line for your car is a big part of the challenge and is expected. Trying to see or find out where the track actually goes should not be part of the challenge. You can design the exact same, nicely flowing track without making it confusing, which is counter productive to learning the line, especially for new drivers. Let's see how it goes, but I'd prefer one standing cone on the right for each one on the left.

+1