TT/DE New rule (confusion)

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TT/DE New rule (confusion)

Postby Karen Garcia Raines on Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:34 am

This is why I hate texting, and I should not do it. One missed preposition, and the entire meaning is skewed. Apparently, I did a terrible job conveying some info from the Zone 8 Meeting to Andrew and Dan.

To clarify:

There will be a new TT/DE rule per PCA National that is supposed to go in effect in January and yesterday was the first anybody had heard. (Rest assured, Skip Carter was very vocal about lack of notice.)

The rule will require DE and TT drivers using 4 point and higher belts to wear a neck restraint. If you don't have a neck restraint, you may still drive with your factory 3 point harness.

Sorry for any confusion my communication may have caused.

And please note, I'm only relaying the information. Arguments should be directed else where. :surr: :surr: :surr:
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Re: TT/DE New rule (confusion)

Postby Robert on Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:55 am

Can you please provide the Club's definition of "neck restraint"?
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Re: TT/DE New rule (confusion)

Postby Karen Garcia Raines on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:09 am

No, I really can't.

That is a question for the Zone 8 CDI, Scott Mann. Here is a link the Zone 8 contacts page. Click Scott's name to open a form to send him a question.

Thanks,
Karen

http://www.zone8.org/contacts/zone8.php
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Re: TT/DE New rule (confusion)

Postby Robert on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:25 am

Does the rule require Students in an Instructor car with 4+ point belts to use a "neck restraint"? If so, are SDR's rental helmets "neck restraint" compatible? If not, SDR will need to acquire compatible helmets and acceptable "neck restraint" devices in order to keep the DE/TT program viable. I don't see it working to put the burden on Instructors to purchase 2 full systems, and even then the passenger helmet may not fit properly. Hopefully the Club currently has significant reserves to purchase a couple dozen full rental systems if the Zone plans to enact this rule immediately.
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Re: TT/DE New rule (confusion)

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:44 am

I have contacted Zone-8 and asked them to make a clarification here as we are the region managing the greatest number of track days in the Zone.
Stay tuned... I am sure they are getting bombarded with questions they don't have answers for yet!
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Re: TT/DE New rule (confusion)

Postby Greg Phillips on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:50 am

Robert wrote:Can you please provide the Club's definition of "neck restraint"?

Here is what is on their site presently (red added ):

Harness Systems

If the participant chooses to install a five- or six-point driving harness, several changes to the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must:

Include an antisubmarine strap.
Have all harness attachment points secured/mounted in an approved manner consistent with the manufacturer’s instructions.
Be used in conjunction with a seat that has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and antisubmarine belts.
Have the shoulder straps mounted at 90 degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from horizontal.
The participant should BE AWARE that the addition of such a seat and harness system results in the occupant being fastened upright in the vehicle. Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage and an approved Head and Neck Restraint System (HANS) device are strongly encouraged and highly recommended. The use of such a harness system without roll protection and HANS may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Roll bars or cages and their installation must meet PCA Club Racing Standards

When using a head and neck restraint device, it must meet the standards of either SFI 38.1 or FIA 8858. It is recommended that one follow the SFI Recertification process for the head and neck restraint device. The instructions for this can be found on the device. Additionally, it is recommended that the straps be replaced every five years.

Due to UV degradation and wear, the harness webbing must be replaced every five years.
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Re: TT/DE New rule (confusion)

Postby dcarusillo on Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:22 pm

Karen,
thank you for representing our club. The confusion seems to lie with the haste and lack of clarity this mandate carries. This is a surprise to everyone. Additionally we were afforded no opportunity for input. To all, rest assured we are contacting National and Russell Shon, our rules Chair. Perhaps one of them can present the exact language and make sense of the specifics.
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Re: TT/DE New rule (confusion)

Postby Gary Burch on Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:52 am

Greg Phillips wrote:[ Additionally, it is recommended that the straps be replaced every five years.[/color]

Due to UV degradation and wear, the harness webbing must be replaced every five years.


I have never understood this part, seat belts are good for 10-20-30 years in most cars and are in the sun every single day, and also get used everyday. Harnesses on the other hand see the sun, at the most, 3 or 4 weeks a year, and are in actual use a fraction of that time. Are they that fragile? If so 3 points would be a lot safer. Makes you think harness suppliers wrote this rule...
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Re: TT/DE New rule (confusion)

Postby Mike on Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:42 am

Gary Burch wrote:
Greg Phillips wrote:[ Additionally, it is recommended that the straps be replaced every five years.[/color]

Due to UV degradation and wear, the harness webbing must be replaced every five years.


Makes you think harness suppliers wrote this rule...


Agree Gary while 5 years is common SVRA requires us to replace or reweb belts every 2 years.
A new set of 5 points is around $210 while a reweb is about $60.
With 3 race cars I may just keep one set of belts updated and move them to whatever car I will be racing next. :wink:

PS Very happy with my Necksgen device and you can buy them direct from the manufacture in El Cajon.
They will also install and adjust it for you.
On sale $100 off till end of this month. 8) http://www.necksgen.com/
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Re: TT/DE New rule (confusion)

Postby Dan Chambers on Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:16 am

Greg Phillips wrote:Here is what is on their site presently:

... Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage and an approved Head and Neck Restraint System (HANS) device are strongly encouraged and highly recommended. The use of such a harness system without roll protection and HANS may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Roll bars or cages and their installation must meet PCA Club Racing Standards....


So ....

I think the significant language here is the use of terms like "strongly encouraged" and "highly recommended". What I am not seeing is:

"Vehicles are required to have" or "Vehicles with 5-point harness systems additionally must have..." In other words, it's being "recommended" and "encouraged", not "required".

So, how does the Tech Team "enforce" a "Recommended and encouraged" system? This language appears vague from both an enforcement and legally liable point of view. From my perspective, this language of "encouragement" and the ensuing equipment requirements results are open to interpretation and unenforceable due to vagueness.

Just my interpretation.
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