Slow Car Fast

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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby ttweed on Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:39 am

LUCKY DAVE wrote:This place is finally starting to feel like a real forum, with thoughtful exchange of ideas (and arguing LOL). In the past this forum has been as quiet as a graveyard.

I don't know, Dave. The lack of anonymity, trolls, and sock puppets on this forum really inhibits the development of full-on, name-calling, back-biting flame wars so prevalent on other forums. It's still pretty sedate here, relatively. Try the Corvette forums when a Mustang fan-boy posts for some real excitement. :lol:

TT
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Gary Burch on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:32 am

The legend of the Porsche 911 is of a car that even brave men should fear. But in recent years Porsche has tamed its hairy beast, as today’s 911 is the most user-friendly supercar on the road. So does that mean that the old school Porsche experience is dead? Well, not as long as the Porsche 911 GT3 exists! It’s as back to basics as a modern Porsche can get, with performance that requires even the best driver to keep an extra-firm grip on the steering wheel.

But it’s not just pure velocity that makes the 2004 Porsche 911 GT3 a challenge to drive. There’s also the fact that the GT3 carries few of the electronic save-your-butt systems that modern Porsche pilots have grown accustomed to. There’s no traction control, no stability and spin control. In fact, anti-lock brakes are the only concession that the rear-drive GT3 makes to the 21st century.

Motorweek review
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby mrondeau on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:57 am

Gary Burch wrote:The legend of the Porsche 911 is of a car that even brave men should fear. But in recent years Porsche has tamed its hairy beast, as today’s 911 is the most user-friendly supercar on the road. So does that mean that the old school Porsche experience is dead? Well, not as long as the Porsche 911 GT3 exists! It’s as back to basics as a modern Porsche can get, with performance that requires even the best driver to keep an extra-firm grip on the steering wheel.

But it’s not just pure velocity that makes the 2004 Porsche 911 GT3 a challenge to drive. There’s also the fact that the GT3 carries few of the electronic save-your-butt systems that modern Porsche pilots have grown accustomed to. There’s no traction control, no stability and spin control. In fact, anti-lock brakes are the only concession that the rear-drive GT3 makes to the 21st century.

Motorweek review

Still lauded as the last true drivers car made by Porsche.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Erik K on Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:35 am

Amen to that Gary :rockon: , My Dad has bought, Sold, and bought back his 04 GT3 :shock: haha. Very nice car to drive. No other Porsche makes the same in car noise as this. ABS as the only Nanny.

For your viewing pleasure from a few years back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HwMlLS1WQY


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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby kleggo on Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:45 am

me too.
I bought, sold, bought back my 04 GT3.

Happy Happy Joy Joy.

Ciao
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby mrondeau on Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:07 am

Erik K wrote:Amen to that Gary :rockon: , My Dad has bought, Sold, and bought back his 04 GT3 :shock: haha. Very nice car to drive. No other Porsche makes the same in car noise as this. ABS as the only Nanny.

For your viewing pleasure from a few years back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HwMlLS1WQY


Erik Kinninger
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That is what I call "predictive car control" Notice all the hand and throttle inputs and yet the car maintains its line and does so without any electronic aids. That comes from experience and feel. You can't get that kind of feel in any of the new "nannied" cars.

Here's another example of predictive driving control.

https://youtu.be/WP2ogW1DsPg



Nice driving Erik. Always fun to watch you hustle around a track.
Last edited by mrondeau on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby ttweed on Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:09 pm

mrondeau wrote:Still lauded as the last true drivers car made by Porsche.

I would only agree that the 996/997 GT3 is the last semi-affordable true driver's car made by Porsche. The 991.2 GT3 and 911R both come with a manual transmission and a sublime 500HP flat-six NA engine, with all the Porsche "feel" and "handling" genes of the past intact. Read the reviews, since the chances of being able to own one are remote, for most of us. They have lost nothing and improved the experience in almost all categories. The only small negatives might be in overall size and electric versus hydraulic steering, but it is hard for most people to find fault with them.
https://www.drive.com.au/what-car-should-i-buy/performance/porsche-911-r-new-car-review-20160729-gqh5jj.html
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/porsche/porsche-911-gt3-2017-review/

You can't get that kind of feel in any of the new "nannied" cars.


One thing you all seem to be forgetting is that in the GT cars, the "nannies" are calibrated in a much more "sporty" manner than the other 911s, and can be turned off completely and stay off under all conditions if you prefer, unlike all the other Porsche models. There is nothing between you and a "pure" driving experience with the newest iterations if you like. Me, I find a manual transmission nostalgic these days, and I prefer my nannies on, as they seldom intervene if driven smoothly, and I cannot afford to wad my car up, after spending way too much of my retirement savings on it. My wife would kill me, if I happened to survive. :lol:

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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby SDGT3 on Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:35 pm

Gary Burch wrote:The legend of the Porsche 911 is of a car that even brave men should fear. But in recent years Porsche has tamed its hairy beast, as today’s 911 is the most user-friendly supercar on the road. So does that mean that the old school Porsche experience is dead? Well, not as long as the Porsche 911 GT3 exists! It’s as back to basics as a modern Porsche can get, with performance that requires even the best driver to keep an extra-firm grip on the steering wheel.

But it’s not just pure velocity that makes the 2004 Porsche 911 GT3 a challenge to drive. There’s also the fact that the GT3 carries few of the electronic save-your-butt systems that modern Porsche pilots have grown accustomed to. There’s no traction control, no stability and spin control. In fact, anti-lock brakes are the only concession that the rear-drive GT3 makes to the 21st century.

Motorweek review


I've thought about selling my 2004 GT3 several times and getting something different, but every time I get in it, a smile comes over my face ! :D I've had a Kawasaki Ninja, Jet Skis, go karts, and M cars, but the 996 GT3 is the longest I've ever owned a "toy", 12 years and counting!
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Erik K on Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:45 pm

Thanks Mark, I appreciate it! Your "wiggle in turn 3" was a great example of a quick reaction and control needed, to catch your Loose on turn in moment :D .
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Erik K on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:29 pm

:rockon: Thumbs up , Peter B, and Craif F,

No doubt new Porsche's are different in many ways than older 911's. This Thread was started about driving a slow car fast Vs Fast car.. I have NOT driven a Porsche newer than my Dads 04' GT3. 100 %, the new cars are faster, and I'm sure a rush in the fact of how fast you can go, while being relatively behaved with their longer wheel bases, rear wheel steering etc. I am not going to arm chair quarter back how fast I am/was or think I am lol, But in the time I've co-owned and then purchased my 81' 911 SC from my Dad, I have learned a lot more about managing all aspects of driving fast (breaking, line, corner speed Etc.) than driving previous quicker cars. These old 911's are tricky, but Fun!

Found this cool video on Pelican of an on-track review of a 2.7 RS. Its a little long, but the thing I liked the most about this video, was the driver talking about Balance. Enjoy.

https://youtu.be/_q_YDSgRa1U

Oh and happy Friday everyone.

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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby mrondeau on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:49 pm

ttweed wrote:
mrondeau wrote:Still lauded as the last true drivers car made by Porsche.

I would only agree that the 996/997 GT3 is the last semi-affordable true driver's car made by Porsche. The 991.2 GT3 and 911R both come with a manual transmission and a sublime 500HP flat-six NA engine, with all the Porsche "feel" and "handling" genes of the past intact. Read the reviews, since the chances of being able to own one are remote, for most of us. They have lost nothing and improved the experience in almost all categories. The only small negatives might be in overall size and electric versus hydraulic steering, but it is hard for most people to find fault with them.
https://www.drive.com.au/what-car-should-i-buy/performance/porsche-911-r-new-car-review-20160729-gqh5jj.html
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/porsche/porsche-911-gt3-2017-review/

You can't get that kind of feel in any of the new "nannied" cars.


One thing you all seem to be forgetting is that in the GT cars, the "nannies" are calibrated in a much more "sporty" manner than the other 911s, and can be turned off completely and stay off under all conditions if you prefer, unlike all the other Porsche models. There is nothing between you and a "pure" driving experience with the newest iterations if you like. Me, I find a manual transmission nostalgic these days, and I prefer my nannies on, as they seldom intervene if driven smoothly, and I cannot afford to wad my car up, after spending way too much of my retirement savings on it. My wife would kill me, if I happened to survive. :lol:

TT


Tom, I'm not forgetting it. The electronic aids are amazing and wonderful and they keep the vast majority of their owners safe from their own mistakes, all the while allowing a truly excellent driver the opportunity to enjoy an incredible driving experience. The "last true drivers car" has none of this. It's the closest that a modern(ish) GT car gets to the visceral driving experience that you can get with an early 911. Regardless of how well the "nannies" are calibrated, they're still there. I, for one, have no desire to get in a GT car with an unproven driver and allow them to turn the nannies off. That's a lot of car and needs to be handled by someone with the experience and skill to truly drive the car. This speaks back to the heart of this thread: Can you learn to drive at the cars limits in one of these cars? None of the answers from anyone else that I've seen on this thread or anywhere else convince me that someone can. The cars are too fast, the nannies too good and mistakes can get super expensive really fast.

The one thing we may be able to agree on is that these cars can make everyone faster, whether or not they can drive. That's what technology does. Does that make the driver better? No. It just makes them faster than they were. Remember the saying: "How fast you want to go depends on how much you want to spend."
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby rshon on Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

The '04/'05 996 GT3 was the last true "naniless" GT3 car (ABS only). I've had many friends who owned and driven them, and yes, they could be quite unforgiving at the limit. This includes a couple of people who have balled them up. This is one of the reasons why they have actually been going up in value in the last couple of years.

When Porsche builds a powerful car that can be operated on the street (or the Autobahn), they have to be sure that the car is safe enough for the average, er, "German" to drive at high speeds. Especially when you're up in the 400-500hp range and have added a lot of grip. With every successive generation, the level of sophistication of the stability and dynamics control and the lack of apparent intrusion has been enhanced. I have literally seen late model Caymans changing direction (in what should have been a blown corner) in ways that almost defy the laws of physics.

On the other hand, I think those guys (my friends) who are driving the old swing-arm 911s at speed are crazy. When driven at the limit, those cars are literally stacking up the number of ways they are going to punish you for the slightest misstep. By turning. Or braking. Or lifting. Or gassing. And I have years of videos showing just that through my windshield. You guys are braver than saints.

The challenge shouldn't be "try my $150k 500HP piece of technology", it should be "show us what you can do in a 30+ year old car that is constantly looking for ways to spit you off the road". Because this thread is supposed to be about driving a "Slow Car Fast"...
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby ttweed on Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:03 pm

mrondeau wrote: It's the closest that a modern(ish) GT car gets to the visceral driving experience that you can get with an early 911. Regardless of how well the "nannies" are calibrated, they're still there.
What I'm saying is that they're not there if you turn them off. If you want "visceral," you can have it in the new GT cars, just turn PSM off. You want manual instead of PDK, you can have it. All the original Porsche 911 DNA is still present in the new GT cars, except the snap trailing-throttle oversteer, perhaps. The 996 GT3 already has such a much more sophisticated suspension than an early 911, plus better aero, that they can hardly be compared, IMHO. The new 991.2 GT3 or 911R w/ PSM off and manual transmission would be just like a 996 GT3 with 120 more horsepower as far as I can tell, except that it would cost 3-6 times as much to buy. Until (or if) I ever get a chance to drive one I'll never know for sure, but that's my impression from what I've heard second hand. I'm not sure how anyone can deny that they are a "true driver's car" without trying them out. Even the rear-wheel steering (which cannot be easily disabled) is just a subtle device to simulate a shortened wheelbase and make the handling more similar to the 996 GT3 in cornering, while making it more stable on the straights at high speeds. Seems like a win-win to me.

I, for one, have no desire to get in a GT car with an unproven driver and allow them to turn the nannies off.

That would be a prudent action. Basic self-preservation.

This speaks back to the heart of this thread: Can you learn to drive at the cars limits in one of these cars?

I agree it would not be the best, the most efficient, or the most productive way to learn basic car control skills, and quite a bit more dangerous. It could be done, actually, but it would take a very long time, over a period of years (with the amount of seat time an average person would get annually), building up to the limits slowly using the standard process we have (AX, then DE/TT}, learning the basics with nannies on, gleaning from the PSM intervention and good coaching where you are making mistakes, and then repeating the entire process with the nannies disabled, starting over at the beginning again in a lower speed, controlled environment like AX. It certainly wouldn't be the fastest way to develop good car control skills by any means, and far from the cheapest or safest. Not many people would have the dedication or patience to do that correctly, I imagine, so shortcuts would be taken, in all likelihood, with sub-optimal results.

After 17 years in early 911s, and having driven a wide range of other sports cars, including a 450 HP, 2400 lb. mid-engine car with no electronic aids of any sort (even ABS) for a few years, I felt perfectly comfortable almost immediately in the 991 GT3. It is actually a more benign and neutral car to drive than a torsion bar/trailing arm 911, even with the PSM off (except for the fact that you have enough torque to spin the rear wheels at will). It is far more difficult to drive at the limit, though, just because the limits are so damn high, and by the time you are approaching them, you are going very fast with little room for errors in judgment or incorrect reactions. It is not a car for a novice to even experiment with turning the nannies off in, especially on a big track, and the PSM is not magic--the nannies alone are insufficient to save someone from monumental stupidity in every case, so normal prudence and caution are necessary, as always. There is no denying, though, that they are extremely capable, exciting, and satisfying cars to drive at speed, given adequate skill levels, and are still 911s at heart.

OK, back to the "slow car fast" programming....

TT
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Gary Burch on Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:38 am

it all depends on what you want out of the driving experience.
sure, you can spend the money and buy the baddest thing on the track.
and you must know, at least somewhere inside, that you will never reach the cars limits.
that's ok, though.
you keep pushing the envelope, just like all the rest of us, to become a better driver.
but, to be a good driver you have to get out on that razor's edge, between
glory and disaster. where the only nannie is you.
when I push in my car, it's not the sport mode button. I want to get out there, feel the rush,
get my car and myself close to the limit, I love it.
the ragged edge is where all the fun is.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby ttweed on Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:05 am

Gary Burch wrote:it all depends on what you want out of the driving experience.
sure, you can spend the money and buy the baddest thing on the track.
and you must know, at least somewhere inside, that you will never reach the cars limits.
that's ok, though.
you keep pushing the envelope, just like all the rest of us, to become a better driver.
but, to be a good driver you have to get out on that razor's edge, between
glory and disaster. where the only nannie is you.
when I push in my car, it's not the sport mode button. I want to get out there, feel the rush,
get my car and myself close to the limit, I love it.
the ragged edge is where all the fun is.

Very well said, Gary, and I agree that it is easier to get an early 911 to that ragged edge and stay on it longer during a lap, but I don't agree that you can't reach the car's limits in a modern GT car and enjoy the same feeling, perhaps even more intensely because the limit is higher and the risk even greater. The rush is still there for me. The "edge" is the limit of grip, of course, where the tires have reached optimal slip angles and threaten to exceed them at one end of the car or the other at any moment, with the level of grip dropping precipitously. The tremendous grip of a modern GT car with wide, sticky tires is just so high that they must be pushed even harder to achieve those moments, and the opportunities to get to that point are more limited as a result, especially on a slower course, but they are still there. Even with PSM on, the GT cars still allow enough slip angle and yaw to get the most out of the tires, and the driver's inputs to keep it on that edge are just as critical, it just happens at a higher level and the car must be pushed harder to get there and keep it there. It's the same challenge, just at a different level.

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