Slow Car Fast

A place to hang out and discuss all things Porsche.

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Jad on Thu May 31, 2018 7:56 am

TT,

Your suggestions makes a lot of sense, but the club is quite firm in the fact that there are NO requirements for big track driving. A few smart people have taken it upon themselves I believe to somewhat limit Fontana and Big Willow for complete newbies, but a 16 year old in a GT3 RS on his birthday is welcome to join us at Buttonwillow (may need to be 18, I forget).

The spinning of a 996GT3 was easy, the 997GT3 was hard, but doable, spinning a 991GT3 is really really hard and the other 991+ cars are worse. I only know of 1-2 991+ drivers that have really tried to AX without any nannies for more than a lap or two. Know what? It is hard, much easier to fly around with the nannies and get a good time. I really doubt a single one of them could accurately explain what the nannies are, when they are on/off etc like you did in a previous post. I have not even tried to distinguish between nannies and performance enhancement devices, as they really work together, but as you stated, are technically serving different purposes.

The PDS should absolutely be a no nannie event, but "the cars are driven as they would be on the street, as this is not racing." I have been told.

Oh, well. I would absolutely love to see the 991 drivers of today have to drive your old 911 at Chuckwalla and get a sub ~2:05 in order to advance. If they could do that, then they would have shown they understand car dynamics enough to safely utilize and understand what the nannies are doing (other than power on oversteer :wink: ) and advance as drivers.

That is why I haven't been to the last few PDS's after teaching at virtually every one for 25 years. Watching the driver punch the gas with 500+ hp and smoothly pull away as the car performs perfect shifts until the corner where you point to what side of the track they should be on while they mash the brakes and crank the wheel and the car just turns to the apex and downshifts where they mash the gas and repeat. It works, but pointing left-right and knowing they don't feel the car correcting the myriad of errors isn't fun or very useful in my opinion.
Jad Duncan
997 S Cab - Sold
996 "not a cup car" co-driver
Tesla Model S P85
Tesla Model 3 Performance
https://www.goldfishconsulting.com/
User avatar
Jad
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:03 am
Location: Del Mar

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby ttweed on Thu May 31, 2018 9:26 am

Jad wrote:TT,

Your suggestions makes a lot of sense, but the club is quite firm in the fact that there are NO requirements for big track driving. A few smart people have taken it upon themselves I believe to somewhat limit Fontana and Big Willow for complete newbies, but a 16 year old in a GT3 RS on his birthday is welcome to join us at Buttonwillow (may need to be 18, I forget).


Wow, shows you how out of the loop I am! :shock: I guess that is the natural outgrowth of offering DE groups at our big track events instead of just Time Trials, as it used to be. I suppose that it is just following the trend of "open track days" for anyone with a driver's license offered by private companies that have sprung up all around the country. No experience necessary, just pay the entry and take your sportscar on the track to see what it's like to be Mario Andretti?

So what do we do now to qualify a DE student to drive solo and run for time?

TT
Tom Tweed -- #908
2015 GT3
SDR Tech Inspection Chair 2005-06
SDR Forum Admin 2010-
Driving Porsches since 1964
User avatar
ttweed
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1786
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:13 am
Location: La Jolla, CA

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby rwalker on Thu May 31, 2018 9:31 am

PCA likes when you keep a journal. With enough log entries and a recommendation, you can get a "solo signoff" from a CDI.
Last edited by rwalker on Thu May 31, 2018 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rob Walker - #171
2004 Boxster S (Midnight Blue Metallic)
rwalker@rwalker.com
User avatar
rwalker
Member
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:25 am
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby sf.in.sd on Thu May 31, 2018 1:25 pm

Anyone can drive a DE, but there are some requirements for a time trial in a PCASDR or Zone 8 event.

Zone 8 rules:
B. Novice Previous Experience Requirements
1. Driver’s Ed events are open to all drivers, no previous experience required.
2. TT participation is not allowed until the driver is qualified to solo OR has at
least 8 days of total event experience comprised of Autocross, Driving
School, or Driver’s Ed events (or the equivalent) within the previous 24
months. In the latter case, the driver will be considered a novice until they
are qualified to solo as stated in the provisions of Part C of this section.

Robert or Jack could verify, but "qualified to solo" is probably a check ride and/or perusal of motorsportreg data.

In my experience DE's are offered at CVR, Streets, and Buttonwillow. Not at Fontana or Big Willow (generally; one year when Streets was cancelled Instructors could opt in or out from teaching DE). Don't recall a DE at Spring Mountain, but have only been there once and don't remember.

Shawn
Shawn Flanagan
1987 924S - Spec 944 (co-owner SFRS Racing)
2011 BMW 1 Series M Coupe
2012 Cayman R (by loan from spouse for occasional spirited driving)
User avatar
sf.in.sd
Autocrosser
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 3:37 pm

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Jad on Thu May 31, 2018 8:47 pm

Shawn,

I believe you are right, but the difference between TT and DE is virtually nothing beyond timing at the end of the event. My point is anyone with a driver's license is allowed to drive at bw in any car with zero experience.
Jad Duncan
997 S Cab - Sold
996 "not a cup car" co-driver
Tesla Model S P85
Tesla Model 3 Performance
https://www.goldfishconsulting.com/
User avatar
Jad
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:03 am
Location: Del Mar

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Old Guy on Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:23 pm

Just re-reading the entire thread. Great stuff; kudos to all of the contributors. Dan, Tom, Jad and many others, you all are Aces High for me. You have my respect, and especially appreciation for your seat time and the hundreds (thousands?) of PCA-SDR drivers you've influenced over the years. You're a cadre of Very Specials. Thanks.

A few comments:

- I'm an Old Guy at age 72. If I was ever going to improve as a driver, working my way up through the ranks, let's face it: those years are behind me...never to be recovered. I worked overseas for most of my active working career: no track time at all. At my life-stage, the major motivation for (autocross and especially) the track is to enjoy mashing the throttle, stabbing the brakes, and pushing through the corners in a way I simply cannot on the public roads...especially with a Lava Orange car - one doesn't speed in an orange car...but of course I want to be smooth, reasonably accomplished...but most of all: HAVE FUN.

- I lost control and spun my '66 Beetle on the autobahn...in the snow...back in 1968. Crunched the center guard rail with my LR fender. I spun my '79 SC at the end of the Summit Point main straight - twice - back in 1986. (This is the SC that my BinL bought from me, kept forever, and is now with my niece - but that's another story.) Both feet in, ended up in the middle of the track on the pavement both times. Lucky me. Those experiences were visceral and I've never forgotten the, "Holy S... I've lost it," realization of the obvious. Ever since, any corner I take I'm reliving and trying to avoid that Holy S... moment. I recognize this is demotivating when it comes to cornering fast.

- With all due respect to my generation or those of you 10-20 years behind me: there is no going back. Get real. If you send your kids (or in my case grand kids) to a computer coding clinic and the teacher told them that first they had to master typing on an IBM Selectric, deal with punch cards, master DOS code to get the printer to print, and choose between a computer monitor with either green or orange text over black, what would your reaction be? Say what??!! Isn't it obvious that the "new" generation has no knowledge or interest in no nanny race or street cars, G15 trans 911s, heel & toe downshifting, or anything else that all of "our generation" grew up with???

- I was at Fontana with Fast Toys Club on the 27th. There were only 13 cars registered. Needless to say, I got as much track time in our 911 as I could deal with. Face to face conversation with almost every driver told me that not a single one cared a hoot about being good, accomplished or respected as track drivers. All they wanted to do was drive fast or as some said: "race." Well, gimme a break...we are NOT "racing." I came away with an appreciation of the discipline that PCA-SDR enforces.

- I ran in Sport+ with PSM on. 3rd and 4th gear (will get you to over 125 mph) almost exclusively, but occasionally went to 2nd at Turn 3 or Turn 9. NO WAY would I have the faintest idea if lights were flashing on the dash!! I'm looking down the track to the next section...so our colleague's suggestion that an audible would be helpful, I agree with 100%. Worse, I cannot recall ever "feeling' that PSM was helping me out. No sensations. No noises. No nothing. Hmmm.

- That said, on one lap coming off the oval into Turns 3 and 4, I was catching another old guy driving a 2016 Lambo Huracan and it was clear that I could pass him on the mini-straight between 4 and 5. Did I get excited or what??!! Too excited. With the Lambo not more than 10 meters in front of me coming out of 4 my back end came out to at least 30-40 degrees. I countered but was it me saving it, or the PSM? Guessing the latter.

- Finally, allow me to comment on the obvious for many of us. $$$$ Our base 911 (with lots of options I didn't want but it was the only manual 7 speed to be found in the western USA) - the MSRP was over $115K + tax. We traded in a pristine '85 911 Euro Carrera and a '11 Carrera GTS and still had to take on a $60G credit union loan note. What is my motivation to turn off any system that might/will/should protect our monetary investment? Am I hearing you saying anything different?

Fast Toys track day was fun, even if expensive. I'll do another. Please join me!!
Jim "Old Guy" Dunlap
2017 Carrera 911 7 speed MANUAL trans, Lava Orange :lol:
2017 Macan S, Sapphire Blue
2005 BMW M3 Comp Pkg, Interlagos Blue
2005 Volvo V50 Spt Wagon, Passion Red
Old Guy
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:07 pm
Location: Oceanside

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby ScandinavianFlick on Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:47 pm

Old Guy wrote:
- With all due respect to my generation or those of you 10-20 years behind me: there is no going back. Get real. If you send your kids (or in my case grand kids) to a computer coding clinic and the teacher told them that first they had to master typing on an IBM Selectric, deal with punch cards, master DOS code to get the printer to print, and choose between a computer monitor with either green or orange text over black, what would your reaction be? Say what??!! Isn't it obvious that the "new" generation has no knowledge or interest in no nanny race or street cars, G15 trans 911s, heel & toe downshifting, or anything else that all of "our generation" grew up with???



Jim,

I don't have strong opinions one way or another on your other statements (people can and should bring whatever they desire to the track as long as it passes tech), but gross generalizations about "new generations" really irk me. At 30, I'm one of the youngest club members, and I'm ONLY interested in no-nanny, manual, heel-toe required race cars (for street driving nannies don't really make a difference in fun). Many other drivers in my age bracket feel similarly, and I strongly believe there will continue to be an interest in learning to drive "classical" sports cars at their limit. The club's instructor corps should have the experience, desire, and supporting curriculum to teach those skills where appropriate.
Andrew Simmons
Infamous X-Class Entry
ScandinavianFlick
Autocrosser
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 10:12 pm

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby mrondeau on Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:53 pm

ScandinavianFlick wrote:
Old Guy wrote:
- With all due respect to my generation or those of you 10-20 years behind me: there is no going back. Get real. If you send your kids (or in my case grand kids) to a computer coding clinic and the teacher told them that first they had to master typing on an IBM Selectric, deal with punch cards, master DOS code to get the printer to print, and choose between a computer monitor with either green or orange text over black, what would your reaction be? Say what??!! Isn't it obvious that the "new" generation has no knowledge or interest in no nanny race or street cars, G15 trans 911s, heel & toe downshifting, or anything else that all of "our generation" grew up with???



Jim,

I don't have strong opinions one way or another on your other statements (people can and should bring whatever they desire to the track as long as it passes tech), but gross generalizations about "new generations" really irk me. At 30, I'm one of the youngest club members, and I'm ONLY interested in no-nanny, manual, heel-toe required race cars (for street driving nannies don't really make a difference in fun). Many other drivers in my age bracket feel similarly, and I strongly believe there will continue to be an interest in learning to drive "classical" sports cars at their limit. The club's instructor corps should have the experience, desire, and supporting curriculum to teach those skills where appropriate.


Andrew, well said. Quite a few younger drivers continue to come into the club driving cars with limited electronic controls, if any, and really want to learn to drive a classic sports car. Your comparison to coding and computer technology is also flawed. While technology has continued to evolve and constantly updated in the computer field, so has the process and changes to the way technology is created and used. In driving, the technology changes the way the car responds and acts, but the physics and dynamics of driving are still the same. The difference is that the electronic aids now assist in an almost indetectable manner and they are always on, just in case you need them. The car still responds to gravity, motion, inertia and inputs in the same way it always has. The electroni aids are there to correct mistakes that could cause damage to the car and/or driver. Due to the horsepower and speeds involved, it's a necessary evil.

My contention is that this does not promote great driving skill and that it inhibits learning to drive a car at its limits. I've always said these cars are a blast to drive and they are incredible machines. My daily driver is one of the most technologically advanced cars on the road, for now. I understand how much fun that is. If driving fast within that safety net is what you want, you're in the right car. If you really want to learn to drive at the limits, choose something else. It all comes down to personal choice. Just don't tell me what an incredible driver you are when you've never excelled outside of the safety net.
Mark Rondeau
1979 911SC (Mostly stock)
2015 Tesla Model S
TT CDI
DE/TT Safety Chair "Safety 3rd"
WW Delivery Team "It's on the way"
Tech Team "That doesn't look legal"
User avatar
mrondeau
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: Chula Vista

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Old Guy on Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:48 pm

Great to hear and I hope you're right. Makes sense. You sound like a person that listens to their elders. The reason I quit working even part time was that the younger generations in my USG Agency made it quite clear that they had little if any interest in listening to those of us "been there; done that" elders.

Years ago while in England I had a Morgan 4/4 Competition. I replaced it with a Plus 8. The 4/4 was much more fun to drive on back-country English roads than was the V8. It also by far topped my TR-250 (wrecked by the guy I sold it to) and my Lotus Europa (also wrecked by the guy I sold it to) re the fun factor. But that was then. You have more than 40 years of driving to enjoy before you reach my age, by which time of course I'll have long been 6 feet under. For me it's drive what I have and enjoy it, while I still can...and the windows have to go up and the AC work, or my wife will never go anywhere with me.

There are a few other points about Fontana that I should mention. 1) With both Speed Ventures and Fast Toys Club there is a lack of BMW/PCA DE "discipline" for the entire process which, truthfully speaking, is a big negative. There also is a total lack of comradeship as while occasionally 2-3 folks that know each other arrive and stick together, the norm is to have garage-mates with no common interests beyond that day's track driving. 2) It's close to Oceanside, but I drive up the night before, stay at a nice hotel, and hit the Speedway early AM after a 10 minute drive from the hotel. Finish driving and even with traffic I'll be home for dinner. 3) Having a covered garage with a perfectly level floor (not to mention piped in compressed air) is a big Plus. 4) Finally, yes it's windy some days but there isn't any blowing sand. Stated another way, I'm a bit of a wimp when it comes to creature comforts.

That's enough. Now I am starting to sound like one of those Old Guys that are so annoying to be around.
Jim "Old Guy" Dunlap
2017 Carrera 911 7 speed MANUAL trans, Lava Orange :lol:
2017 Macan S, Sapphire Blue
2005 BMW M3 Comp Pkg, Interlagos Blue
2005 Volvo V50 Spt Wagon, Passion Red
Old Guy
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:07 pm
Location: Oceanside

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Mike on Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:47 am

Old Guy wrote:There are a few other points about Fontana that I should mention. 1) With both Speed Ventures and Fast Toys Club there is a lack of BMW/PCA DE "discipline" for the entire process which, truthfully speaking, is a big negative. There also is a total lack of comradeship as while occasionally 2-3 folks that know each other arrive and stick together, the norm is to have garage-mates with no common interests beyond that day's track driving. 2) It's close to Oceanside, but I drive up the night before, stay at a nice hotel, and hit the Speedway early AM after a 10 minute drive from the hotel. Finish driving and even with traffic I'll be home for dinner. 3) Having a covered garage with a perfectly level floor (not to mention piped in compressed air) is a big Plus. 4) Finally, yes it's windy some days but there isn't any blowing sand. Stated another way, I'm a bit of a wimp when it comes to creature comforts.


Private track day are the best. :beerchug:

Fast Toys teamed up with Martin Lipp to cherry pick instructors from BMW and PCA to provide new drivers ride alongs and safety tips.
These events are more about safely enjoying your car on a track and not so much about driver coaching.
I instructed at Fast Toys and enjoyed the experience while giving rides in the Vette to first time track drivers.
Although riding shotgun in the right seat with a helmet and a 3 point belt in a Lambo with no roof at 165mph was a bit of an eye opener.
The 991 GT3 was much more impressive than the Lambos.

Here is a concept that might appeal to those that can only spend a couple hours at a car event.
https://www.puretrack.net/register
Michael_Gagen :D

"Without the ability to manipulate each wheel independently, Its a fun challenge to try and be your own,
ABS, traction control and stability control"
Erik K.
User avatar
Mike
Club Racer
 
Posts: 880
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:45 am
Location: La Mesa

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Mike on Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:14 am

Mark and Andrew thank you for your comments.
Sounds good to me, so we can consider our style of driving as Classic. 8)

The first nannies featured on the C5 Vette were terrible and intrusive.
Now 20 years of nanny development has made them perfect on all cars.
If you are a fan of technology you will rush to drive the newest nanny equipped car.

As the nannies improved I questioned the difference, continue with my no nanny race cars or move towards an automated full nanny car?
With nannies It would mean...
1. no shifting gears
2. no heal toe downshifts
3. no left foot braking/no manual brake bias adjustments
4. no wild slip angle drifts on bias ply slicks

Funny this new wave of nanny sports cars made me appreciate my no nanny cars even more.
I like paddle shifting my Irace driving simulator but on track I prefer the challenge of doing all those driver inputs relegated to nannies on new cars.

Its a great time for sports cars, you can have the newest technology nanny car or still find older cars that require the Classic driving style. :beerchug:
Michael_Gagen :D

"Without the ability to manipulate each wheel independently, Its a fun challenge to try and be your own,
ABS, traction control and stability control"
Erik K.
User avatar
Mike
Club Racer
 
Posts: 880
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:45 am
Location: La Mesa

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby gulf911 on Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:00 pm

Hi Mike,
No need for a full nannied car to get a modern race suspension and
With GT4 and others you can:
Shift Gears
Heel and toe
left foot brake
well, define wild? drift is slower... lol
Although you can turn off nannies and get pretty wild... or so Ive heard... :beerchug:
Dan Andrews
#2 Carmine Red GT4 , 19" Forgelines , LWBS.
User avatar
gulf911
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:17 pm
Location: San Clemente

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Mike on Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:48 am

Happy 4th Dan! :beerchug:
Porsche marketing like with Coke Classic could have a new traction control setting called "Classic light". :wink:
Where all you get is a rev limiter and ABS, the SDR BRI could factor in a nice cushion for Classic Light drivers. :beerchug:
Just for an advanced driver challenge...
entertaining tank slappers and drifts will reappear when you delete the ability to manipulate each wheel independently,
no traction control, no stability control.

just another old guy drifting in the San Diego bay... :burnout:
https://youtu.be/JcTHKozg244
Michael_Gagen :D

"Without the ability to manipulate each wheel independently, Its a fun challenge to try and be your own,
ABS, traction control and stability control"
Erik K.
User avatar
Mike
Club Racer
 
Posts: 880
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:45 am
Location: La Mesa

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Jad on Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:28 am

The new cars are definitely amazing, safe and fast, but they lack the challenge that made me love driving. I don't see many people wanting to develop their driving. It is awesome to floor it down the straight at 100+, the first few times. But it will get boring after a while. The fun of driving is inching up to the limited, learning how to correct when you pass that limit and repeating with different tires, temps, etc. Then maybe learn how to heal-toe, how to throttle steer, how to left foot brake, how to threshold brake, the balance needed for trail braking, the art of rolling on the throttle on corner exit. These are each skills you learn with time and experience that are so rewarding to practice and improve on. NONE of them apply to a nanny car. You can just mash the gas, mash the brake, the car takes you around like riding a rollercoaster. It is great fun, and you can play with the line to improve your time a bit, but there really is very little to spend years practicing, learning and mastering.

I really doubt many people will spend 30 years developing their skills as a driver as there is very little to work on once the thrill of speed is gone. I think it is reflected in todays youth having little interest in driving. Even the most basic car is FAST compared to the fun sports cars of the pre-nanny world. A 991 is SO fast you can't play with it on the street and need track days to enjoy it, a Morgan 4/4 is great fun at the limits on the street pretty much at the speed limit :rockon:

So I think the new cars are awesome to go play and have some fun at the track occasionally. They are fast and safe. However, I think they are terrible if you want to learn to drive and develop your skills, especially if you don't have the skills from years of driving without the nannies to understand what the car is doing versus what you are asking it to do. :beerchug:
Jad Duncan
997 S Cab - Sold
996 "not a cup car" co-driver
Tesla Model S P85
Tesla Model 3 Performance
https://www.goldfishconsulting.com/
User avatar
Jad
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:03 am
Location: Del Mar

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby jbrennen on Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:24 am

Jad wrote:I really doubt many people will spend 30 years developing their skills as a driver as there is very little to work on once the thrill of speed is gone. I think it is reflected in todays youth having little interest in driving. Even the most basic car is FAST compared to the fun sports cars of the pre-nanny world. A 991 is SO fast you can't play with it on the street and need track days to enjoy it, a Morgan 4/4 is great fun at the limits on the street pretty much at the speed limit :rockon:


Reminds me of a story I saw related by Gene Hackman a long time ago back in the pre-nanny days. I don't recall the exact details, but the gist is that he was driving one of the many twisting roads in Hollywood in a Ford Escort, being followed by a Ferrari. (Gene Hackman once drove for Dan Gurney in the 24 hours of Daytona, just to show that he's definitely at the high end of the driver skill spectrum...) Anyway, Gene started to drive faster and faster and the Ferrari tried to keep up and the Ferrari ended up crashed into an embankment.

Classic example of "Slow Car Fast" with somewhat embarrassing results for the Ferrari driver, who obviously overestimated his own abilities.

EDIT: My first car was a Ford Escort GT with a whopping 110 horsepower driving the front wheels. I learned how to throttle steer in that car. With only 110 HP, I never got into too much trouble, but I learned to work the traction circle and how to modulate throttle. With an open diff, it could easily spin the inside front wheel when giving throttle mid-corner, and I got to know that edge very well. After four years, I moved on to a RWD car, and never looked back, but those four years learning how to get the most out of a slow car were definitely valuable.
Jack Brennen
#714
2015 Sapphire Blue Cayman GTS
https://www.facebook.com/jbrennen
User avatar
jbrennen
Autocrosser
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:45 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests

cron