Slow Car Fast

A place to hang out and discuss all things Porsche.

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby gulf911 on Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:22 am

Thanks for your response Dan, but, My assumptions are correct. No offense but driving a GT car while instructing , in a car you dont own, a couple times , at well under 7/10's? Does not a
comparison make. Thats why I had "driven" in quotations.

Just an observation but , One of the big reasons you dont feel the "Bump/Twitches" in a newer GT (nannies or not), is because YOU PROBABLY HAVE SUSPENSION TECHNOLOGY FROM 1983.. :roll:

There are A LOT of things you can instruct besides how to throw the car around to novices in nannied cars , like the right line , when to brake , apply throttle , oh and how to drive a nannied car fast etc etc etc...
Just this can take years to master.
This comes under how to teach to be a better driver. The basics are what helps students most imho.

There are many different cars , and I am just spit balling here but...many cars may have to be driven differently than an old 911. So if you are trying to demonstrate/teach how to drive an 83 SC with a 3.6 in it,
in a GT car , then you are right it wont work and wont be fast. :wink:

My point is nannies , with respect to instructing , really shouldnt hinder what or how you can instruct for that car, imho.

Good to see you are still feisty Dan!... :beerchug:
Dan Andrews
#2 Carmine Red GT4 , 19" Forgelines , LWBS.
User avatar
gulf911
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:17 pm
Location: San Clemente

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Dan Chambers on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:40 pm

gulf911 wrote:Thanks for your response Dan, but, My assumptions are correct. No offense but driving a GT car while instructing , in a car you dont own, a couple times , at well under 7/10's? Does not a
comparison make. Thats why I had "driven" in quotations.

Just an observation but , One of the big reasons you dont feel the "Bump/Twitches" in a newer GT (nannies or not), is because YOU PROBABLY HAVE SUSPENSION TECHNOLOGY FROM 1983.. :roll:


Not offended. However, since you weren't in the car with me, it's probably hard for you to say just how I was driving the car from behind your computer screen. So.... OK, you remember exactly how I was driving? Ok.... good point. Good for you, Dan.

gulf911 wrote:There are A LOT of things you can instruct besides how to throw the car around to novices in nannied cars , like the right line , when to brake , apply throttle , oh and how to drive a nannied car fast etc etc etc...
Just this can take years to master.
This comes under how to teach to be a better driver. The basics are what helps students most imho.


Huh, no kidding... :roll: Boy, I don't know a thing about Instructing. :oops:

gulf911 wrote:There are many different cars , and I am just spit balling here but...many cars may have to be driven differently than an old 911. So if you are trying to demonstrate/teach how to drive an 83 SC with a 3.6 in it,
in a GT car , then you are right it wont work and wont be fast. :wink:


Gee.... really, Dan?

gulf911 wrote:My point is nannies , with respect to instructing , really shouldnt hinder what or how you can instruct for that car, imho.


Can you teach me how to be a better Instructor, Dan? I'd just love it if you would.

gulf911 wrote:Good to see you are still feisty Dan!... :beerchug:


Always.

With respect; I think we have two different opinions based on two different experiences. And, I acknowledge and appreciate your POV based on your experiences. Clearly, you don't respect or wish to acknowledge my experiences or my point of view. Nothing new there. That's fine.

My point is that having nannies on board is not a useful tool to learning how to be a better driver... as Alain suggested earlier. We both agree that driving the fundamentals will always make a driver better. However, if technologiy is preventing a driver from understanding when they have over-driven the car (because the level of communication is altered by technology), the learning process is hindered, not helped. But, you'll disagree, for arguement's sake, I'm sure.

The "old school" drivers understand what I'm talking about. It's the newer drivers who only drive with computer-aided technology that concerns me.

OK, I'm done. Won't respond after this. I've hijacked long enough. Have at it, Dan. Knock me out of the park.
Dan Chambers
"It's just a "well prepared" street car ... or a very, very well-mannered track car." :burnout:
1983 SC #91 3.6L, "Black Pearl" Livery
1987 944 (gone but not forgotten)
User avatar
Dan Chambers
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby mrondeau on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:47 pm

Dan C., Didn’t you just receive Instructor of the Year? 8)
Mark Rondeau
1979 911SC (Mostly stock)
2015 Tesla Model S
DE/TT Safety Chair "Safety 3rd"
WW Delivery Team "It's on the way"
Tech Team "That doesn't look legal"
User avatar
mrondeau
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: Chula Vista

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby SDGT3 on Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:23 pm

I'm waiting for the autonomous cars to drive me around the track to see if I can get TTOD... :roflmao:
Peter Busalacchi
User avatar
SDGT3
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:09 pm

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby c4s4pcs on Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:41 pm

Just have Bella drive you around in the GT3 - should work.... 8)
Phil Strong
2006 Carrera 4S - Retired from track
2003 Carrera - Ready for track
User avatar
c4s4pcs
Autocrosser
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:13 pm

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby mrondeau on Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:01 pm

Just some observations and clarifications regarding the GT cars vs. older, lower horsepower cars:
GT cars are a blast to drive and are amazing. I’ve driven a couple of GT4’s, a couple of GT3’s from different years and a 2016 GT3RS. I’ve driven them from 7/10’s to 9/10’s and I find that they are incredibly adept. I’ve driven them with the nannies on and with them turned off. Throttle response is great, they handle really well and the brakes are unbelievable. They do talk to an experienced driver quite well and let you make adjustments without too much interference as long as you’re below 95%. I know from experience that you can turn a high to mid 1:5X.XX at CVR in those cars when driven properly.

In my mind, the GT4 is a little more fun to drive, due to a better balance of handling, hp and I really like the manual shift. I just feel more connected to the car and let’s face it, the PDK in the GT3 feels like cheating. I think Dan A’s experience with his GT4 is enhanced by his many years of experience driving an early 911. He is attuned to the feel of a car and knows when he’s at the limit and is able to keep the nannies from interfering too much. I also think that after driving the Gulf car back and forth to the track with no creature comforts to speak of, he really likes the comfort of the GT4. Who wouldn’t?

Now that we’ve established that the GT cars are fun and fast, let’s talk about the meat of this thread. Can you learn to drive at the limits of one of these cars without getting into a nanny free, lower horsepower car? The definitive answer is....No (1% margin of error factored in.). Every really fast driver I know in PCA, POC, SCCA, etc., learned to drive without nannies. They learned in go karts, 914’s, 944’s, Miata’s, pre-997 series 911’s, hopped up Japanese imports and similar cars.

The advantage of ABS, PSM, PASM, and the rest of the nannies is incredible. The sophistication of these aids renders them practically undetectable to most drivers and very subtle to the rest until they really need to kick in. This leads a lot of drivers to believe that they are actually driving the car at a higher level than they are. Throw most of those drivers in Dan A’s Gulf car and you’ll hear grinding gears, see a ton of smoke from the locked up tires and most likely see spins more suitable to Olympic ice skating as they go off the track.

Diane Cafferata nailed it in her article and it’s something that many of us have discussed for years, increasingly so in recent years. The best way to learn to drive at the limits is to learn in a lower horsepower momentum car. The reasons are numerous. The majority of people driving a $100k+ car will not have the confidence to throw it around to find the limits of the car. I don’t care who you are, it’s a lot easier to take a $10K to $50K hit than it is a $100k to $250K hit to your bank account.

It’s easier to find the limits in a car with limited horsepower. Everything moves slower. You have more time to think. When you make a mistake, the car lets you know and you have plenty of time to think about it as you slowly build your speed back up. When you get things right, it works the same way. You have more time to think about what you did right. It’s easier to find the line when you have more time. You have to drive the correct line to go fast in a slow car. You have to use the entire track because “the speed is in the corners”. There isn’t 500 hp to get you to the next corner quickly.

It’s very satisfying to drive faster than someone else is in a “faster car”. If you’re in a 944 and you’re passing people in the red run group, that means you’re doing things right. If you’re in a 944 and everybody is passing you, that’s ok, they’re supposed to be passing you. There’s no down side.

If you really want to track your progress, regardless of what you’re driving, look at the BRI. You should work on getting into the top 10. Assuming there’s a full field of drivers doing timed runs, a top ten finish in the BRI means you drove well. Ideally you should be within about 2 - 3 seconds of the top BRI finisher. More than 5 seconds over that means you had bad tires, your brakes failed, the sun was in your eyes, a lizard ran in front of your car or some other excuse that prohibited a strong finish.

Ultimately this is about having fun. You can just go out, drive your car at your comfort level, and have fun. Some of us like to push our limits and try to become the best driver we can. I’m one of those and get a sense of satisfaction every time I do well compared to my peers. It’s not for everyone and I respect that.

Go out, be safe, have fun and I’ll see you at the track. :beerchug:
Mark Rondeau
1979 911SC (Mostly stock)
2015 Tesla Model S
DE/TT Safety Chair "Safety 3rd"
WW Delivery Team "It's on the way"
Tech Team "That doesn't look legal"
User avatar
mrondeau
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: Chula Vista

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Greg Phillips on Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:13 pm

gulf911 wrote:Thanks for your response Dan, but, My assumptions are correct. No offense but driving a GT car while instructing , in a car you dont own, a couple times , at well under 7/10's? Does not a
comparison make. Thats why I had "driven" in quotations.

Just an observation but , One of the big reasons you dont feel the "Bump/Twitches" in a newer GT (nannies or not), is because YOU PROBABLY HAVE SUSPENSION TECHNOLOGY FROM 1983.. :roll:

There are A LOT of things you can instruct besides how to throw the car around to novices in nannied cars , like the right line , when to brake , apply throttle , oh and how to drive a nannied car fast etc etc etc...
Just this can take years to master.
This comes under how to teach to be a better driver. The basics are what helps students most imho.

There are many different cars , and I am just spit balling here but...many cars may have to be driven differently than an old 911. So if you are trying to demonstrate/teach how to drive an 83 SC with a 3.6 in it,
in a GT car , then you are right it wont work and wont be fast. :wink:

My point is nannies , with respect to instructing , really shouldnt hinder what or how you can instruct for that car, imho.

Good to see you are still feisty Dan!... :beerchug:


Was that Dano a Dano ? :beerchug:

Greg
Greg Phillips
SDR Past-President @ 2014 Instructor of the Year
1982 911SC coupe & 2003 Boxster
1986 928S & 1989 928S4
1992 968 M030, 1985 944Spec & 2005 Boxster (Pat's car)
User avatar
Greg Phillips
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:41 am
Location: Coronado

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Dan Chambers on Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:46 pm

Was that Dano a Dano ? :beerchug:

Greg


:roflmao: :roflmao:

Great Post, Mark R. All points well said. 8)
Dan Chambers
"It's just a "well prepared" street car ... or a very, very well-mannered track car." :burnout:
1983 SC #91 3.6L, "Black Pearl" Livery
1987 944 (gone but not forgotten)
User avatar
Dan Chambers
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby LUCKY DAVE on Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:00 pm

I can go faster in a bone stock Cayman on hard street tires than I can in my prepared 951 on slicks. Is it as satisfying as driving well in my quirky hard to drive 951?
NO!

I agree with Mark on this, I can't remember how many times a student told me they were amazed they were getting so fast right away when I knew that thanks to the nannies they were unaware they crashed six times per lap. But if I told them so, they would be discouraged and maybe not come back ( Jackie once told me, be a cheerleader! She was right.).

I've said this before:
With nannies they will never learn the basics of car control, (because there's no penalty when they make mistakes) and with big horsepower they never learn to carry momentum properly.
If I was the Czar of PCA, Tim would be contracted to buy and maintain a fleet of ugly but mechanically sound 944s and ALL basic training would be done in them. Only after being signed off by an instructor could a student drive their own (nanny equipped) car.
The reality of course, is that's not going to happen. So we have to deal with students in their cars not learning as "WE" feel they should and make the best of it.
David Malmberg

2015-2016 AX CDI team
PCA National DE Instructor
member, Texas Mile 200 MPH club
"A finish is a win! Moderation is the key! More whine!"
User avatar
LUCKY DAVE
Club Racer
 
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Leucadia ca

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Dan Chambers on Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:09 pm

LUCKY DAVE wrote:I can go faster in a bone stock Cayman on hard street tires than I can in my prepared 951 on slicks. Is it as satisfying as driving well in my quirky hard to drive 951?
NO!

I agree with Mark on this, I can't remember how many times a student told me they were amazed they were getting so fast right away when I knew that thanks to the nannies they were unaware they crashed six times per lap. But if I told them so, they would be discouraged and maybe not come back ( Jackie once told me, be a cheerleader! She was right.).

I've said this before:
With nannies they will never learn the basics of car control, (because there's no penalty when they make mistakes) and with big horsepower they never learn to carry momentum properly.
If I was the Czar of PCA, Tim would be contracted to buy and maintain a fleet of ugly but mechanically sound 944s and ALL basic training would be done in them. Only after being signed off by an instructor could a student drive their own (nanny equipped) car.
The reality of course, is that's not going to happen. So we have to deal with students in their cars not learning as "WE" feel they should and make the best of it.


+1. 8)
Dan Chambers
"It's just a "well prepared" street car ... or a very, very well-mannered track car." :burnout:
1983 SC #91 3.6L, "Black Pearl" Livery
1987 944 (gone but not forgotten)
User avatar
Dan Chambers
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Jad on Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:03 pm

Dave, I think I have to disagree on a couple things:

First the 944's do not need to be ugly :roflmao:

Second, for no good reason, the thought of you as Czar just scares me. :shock:

Other than that :beerchug:
Jad Duncan
997 S Cab - Sold
996 "not a cup car" co-driver
Tesla Model S P85
Tesla Model 3 Performance
https://www.goldfishconsulting.com/
User avatar
Jad
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1757
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:03 am
Location: Del Mar

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby mrondeau on Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:37 pm

Jad wrote:Dave, I think I have to disagree on a couple things:

First the 944's do not need to be ugly :roflmao:

Second, for no good reason, the thought of you as Czar just scares me. :shock:

Other than that :beerchug:


:roflmao:
Mark Rondeau
1979 911SC (Mostly stock)
2015 Tesla Model S
DE/TT Safety Chair "Safety 3rd"
WW Delivery Team "It's on the way"
Tech Team "That doesn't look legal"
User avatar
mrondeau
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: Chula Vista

Re: Slow Car Fast- Vintage thoughts

Postby Greg Phillips on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:14 pm

Greg Phillips
SDR Past-President @ 2014 Instructor of the Year
1982 911SC coupe & 2003 Boxster
1986 928S & 1989 928S4
1992 968 M030, 1985 944Spec & 2005 Boxster (Pat's car)
User avatar
Greg Phillips
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:41 am
Location: Coronado

Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby LUCKY DAVE on Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:43 pm

944's do not need to be ugly

True, just take a look at Adriano's car.

Second, for no good reason, the thought of you as Czar just scares me. :shock:

Me too :lol:
David Malmberg

2015-2016 AX CDI team
PCA National DE Instructor
member, Texas Mile 200 MPH club
"A finish is a win! Moderation is the key! More whine!"
User avatar
LUCKY DAVE
Club Racer
 
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Leucadia ca

Re: Slow Car Fast- Vintage thoughts

Postby mrondeau on Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:09 pm

Greg Phillips wrote:Another R&T column:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsport ... ntage-car/

Greg


Great article.
Mark Rondeau
1979 911SC (Mostly stock)
2015 Tesla Model S
DE/TT Safety Chair "Safety 3rd"
WW Delivery Team "It's on the way"
Tech Team "That doesn't look legal"
User avatar
mrondeau
Pro Racer
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: Chula Vista

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests