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Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:22 am
by gulf911
Thanks for your response Dan, but, My assumptions are correct. No offense but driving a GT car while instructing , in a car you dont own, a couple times , at well under 7/10's? Does not a
comparison make. Thats why I had "driven" in quotations.

Just an observation but , One of the big reasons you dont feel the "Bump/Twitches" in a newer GT (nannies or not), is because YOU PROBABLY HAVE SUSPENSION TECHNOLOGY FROM 1983.. :roll:

There are A LOT of things you can instruct besides how to throw the car around to novices in nannied cars , like the right line , when to brake , apply throttle , oh and how to drive a nannied car fast etc etc etc...
Just this can take years to master.
This comes under how to teach to be a better driver. The basics are what helps students most imho.

There are many different cars , and I am just spit balling here but...many cars may have to be driven differently than an old 911. So if you are trying to demonstrate/teach how to drive an 83 SC with a 3.6 in it,
in a GT car , then you are right it wont work and wont be fast. :wink:

My point is nannies , with respect to instructing , really shouldnt hinder what or how you can instruct for that car, imho.

Good to see you are still feisty Dan!... :beerchug:

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:40 pm
by Dan Chambers
gulf911 wrote:Thanks for your response Dan, but, My assumptions are correct. No offense but driving a GT car while instructing , in a car you dont own, a couple times , at well under 7/10's? Does not a
comparison make. Thats why I had "driven" in quotations.

Just an observation but , One of the big reasons you dont feel the "Bump/Twitches" in a newer GT (nannies or not), is because YOU PROBABLY HAVE SUSPENSION TECHNOLOGY FROM 1983.. :roll:


Not offended. However, since you weren't in the car with me, it's probably hard for you to say just how I was driving the car from behind your computer screen. So.... OK, you remember exactly how I was driving? Ok.... good point. Good for you, Dan.

gulf911 wrote:There are A LOT of things you can instruct besides how to throw the car around to novices in nannied cars , like the right line , when to brake , apply throttle , oh and how to drive a nannied car fast etc etc etc...
Just this can take years to master.
This comes under how to teach to be a better driver. The basics are what helps students most imho.


Huh, no kidding... :roll: Boy, I don't know a thing about Instructing. :oops:

gulf911 wrote:There are many different cars , and I am just spit balling here but...many cars may have to be driven differently than an old 911. So if you are trying to demonstrate/teach how to drive an 83 SC with a 3.6 in it,
in a GT car , then you are right it wont work and wont be fast. :wink:


Gee.... really, Dan?

gulf911 wrote:My point is nannies , with respect to instructing , really shouldnt hinder what or how you can instruct for that car, imho.


Can you teach me how to be a better Instructor, Dan? I'd just love it if you would.

gulf911 wrote:Good to see you are still feisty Dan!... :beerchug:


Always.

With respect; I think we have two different opinions based on two different experiences. And, I acknowledge and appreciate your POV based on your experiences. Clearly, you don't respect or wish to acknowledge my experiences or my point of view. Nothing new there. That's fine.

My point is that having nannies on board is not a useful tool to learning how to be a better driver... as Alain suggested earlier. We both agree that driving the fundamentals will always make a driver better. However, if technologiy is preventing a driver from understanding when they have over-driven the car (because the level of communication is altered by technology), the learning process is hindered, not helped. But, you'll disagree, for arguement's sake, I'm sure.

The "old school" drivers understand what I'm talking about. It's the newer drivers who only drive with computer-aided technology that concerns me.

OK, I'm done. Won't respond after this. I've hijacked long enough. Have at it, Dan. Knock me out of the park.

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:47 pm
by mrondeau
Dan C., Didn’t you just receive Instructor of the Year? 8)

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:23 pm
by SDGT3
I'm waiting for the autonomous cars to drive me around the track to see if I can get TTOD... :roflmao:

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:41 pm
by c4s4pcs
Just have Bella drive you around in the GT3 - should work.... 8)

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:01 pm
by mrondeau
Just some observations and clarifications regarding the GT cars vs. older, lower horsepower cars:
GT cars are a blast to drive and are amazing. I’ve driven a couple of GT4’s, a couple of GT3’s from different years and a 2016 GT3RS. I’ve driven them from 7/10’s to 9/10’s and I find that they are incredibly adept. I’ve driven them with the nannies on and with them turned off. Throttle response is great, they handle really well and the brakes are unbelievable. They do talk to an experienced driver quite well and let you make adjustments without too much interference as long as you’re below 95%. I know from experience that you can turn a high to mid 1:5X.XX at CVR in those cars when driven properly.

In my mind, the GT4 is a little more fun to drive, due to a better balance of handling, hp and I really like the manual shift. I just feel more connected to the car and let’s face it, the PDK in the GT3 feels like cheating. I think Dan A’s experience with his GT4 is enhanced by his many years of experience driving an early 911. He is attuned to the feel of a car and knows when he’s at the limit and is able to keep the nannies from interfering too much. I also think that after driving the Gulf car back and forth to the track with no creature comforts to speak of, he really likes the comfort of the GT4. Who wouldn’t?

Now that we’ve established that the GT cars are fun and fast, let’s talk about the meat of this thread. Can you learn to drive at the limits of one of these cars without getting into a nanny free, lower horsepower car? The definitive answer is....No (1% margin of error factored in.). Every really fast driver I know in PCA, POC, SCCA, etc., learned to drive without nannies. They learned in go karts, 914’s, 944’s, Miata’s, pre-997 series 911’s, hopped up Japanese imports and similar cars.

The advantage of ABS, PSM, PASM, and the rest of the nannies is incredible. The sophistication of these aids renders them practically undetectable to most drivers and very subtle to the rest until they really need to kick in. This leads a lot of drivers to believe that they are actually driving the car at a higher level than they are. Throw most of those drivers in Dan A’s Gulf car and you’ll hear grinding gears, see a ton of smoke from the locked up tires and most likely see spins more suitable to Olympic ice skating as they go off the track.

Diane Cafferata nailed it in her article and it’s something that many of us have discussed for years, increasingly so in recent years. The best way to learn to drive at the limits is to learn in a lower horsepower momentum car. The reasons are numerous. The majority of people driving a $100k+ car will not have the confidence to throw it around to find the limits of the car. I don’t care who you are, it’s a lot easier to take a $10K to $50K hit than it is a $100k to $250K hit to your bank account.

It’s easier to find the limits in a car with limited horsepower. Everything moves slower. You have more time to think. When you make a mistake, the car lets you know and you have plenty of time to think about it as you slowly build your speed back up. When you get things right, it works the same way. You have more time to think about what you did right. It’s easier to find the line when you have more time. You have to drive the correct line to go fast in a slow car. You have to use the entire track because “the speed is in the corners”. There isn’t 500 hp to get you to the next corner quickly.

It’s very satisfying to drive faster than someone else is in a “faster car”. If you’re in a 944 and you’re passing people in the red run group, that means you’re doing things right. If you’re in a 944 and everybody is passing you, that’s ok, they’re supposed to be passing you. There’s no down side.

If you really want to track your progress, regardless of what you’re driving, look at the BRI. You should work on getting into the top 10. Assuming there’s a full field of drivers doing timed runs, a top ten finish in the BRI means you drove well. Ideally you should be within about 2 - 3 seconds of the top BRI finisher. More than 5 seconds over that means you had bad tires, your brakes failed, the sun was in your eyes, a lizard ran in front of your car or some other excuse that prohibited a strong finish.

Ultimately this is about having fun. You can just go out, drive your car at your comfort level, and have fun. Some of us like to push our limits and try to become the best driver we can. I’m one of those and get a sense of satisfaction every time I do well compared to my peers. It’s not for everyone and I respect that.

Go out, be safe, have fun and I’ll see you at the track. :beerchug:

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:13 pm
by Greg Phillips
gulf911 wrote:Thanks for your response Dan, but, My assumptions are correct. No offense but driving a GT car while instructing , in a car you dont own, a couple times , at well under 7/10's? Does not a
comparison make. Thats why I had "driven" in quotations.

Just an observation but , One of the big reasons you dont feel the "Bump/Twitches" in a newer GT (nannies or not), is because YOU PROBABLY HAVE SUSPENSION TECHNOLOGY FROM 1983.. :roll:

There are A LOT of things you can instruct besides how to throw the car around to novices in nannied cars , like the right line , when to brake , apply throttle , oh and how to drive a nannied car fast etc etc etc...
Just this can take years to master.
This comes under how to teach to be a better driver. The basics are what helps students most imho.

There are many different cars , and I am just spit balling here but...many cars may have to be driven differently than an old 911. So if you are trying to demonstrate/teach how to drive an 83 SC with a 3.6 in it,
in a GT car , then you are right it wont work and wont be fast. :wink:

My point is nannies , with respect to instructing , really shouldnt hinder what or how you can instruct for that car, imho.

Good to see you are still feisty Dan!... :beerchug:


Was that Dano a Dano ? :beerchug:

Greg

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:46 pm
by Dan Chambers
Was that Dano a Dano ? :beerchug:

Greg


:roflmao: :roflmao:

Great Post, Mark R. All points well said. 8)

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:00 pm
by LUCKY DAVE
I can go faster in a bone stock Cayman on hard street tires than I can in my prepared 951 on slicks. Is it as satisfying as driving well in my quirky hard to drive 951?
NO!

I agree with Mark on this, I can't remember how many times a student told me they were amazed they were getting so fast right away when I knew that thanks to the nannies they were unaware they crashed six times per lap. But if I told them so, they would be discouraged and maybe not come back ( Jackie once told me, be a cheerleader! She was right.).

I've said this before:
With nannies they will never learn the basics of car control, (because there's no penalty when they make mistakes) and with big horsepower they never learn to carry momentum properly.
If I was the Czar of PCA, Tim would be contracted to buy and maintain a fleet of ugly but mechanically sound 944s and ALL basic training would be done in them. Only after being signed off by an instructor could a student drive their own (nanny equipped) car.
The reality of course, is that's not going to happen. So we have to deal with students in their cars not learning as "WE" feel they should and make the best of it.

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:09 pm
by Dan Chambers
LUCKY DAVE wrote:I can go faster in a bone stock Cayman on hard street tires than I can in my prepared 951 on slicks. Is it as satisfying as driving well in my quirky hard to drive 951?
NO!

I agree with Mark on this, I can't remember how many times a student told me they were amazed they were getting so fast right away when I knew that thanks to the nannies they were unaware they crashed six times per lap. But if I told them so, they would be discouraged and maybe not come back ( Jackie once told me, be a cheerleader! She was right.).

I've said this before:
With nannies they will never learn the basics of car control, (because there's no penalty when they make mistakes) and with big horsepower they never learn to carry momentum properly.
If I was the Czar of PCA, Tim would be contracted to buy and maintain a fleet of ugly but mechanically sound 944s and ALL basic training would be done in them. Only after being signed off by an instructor could a student drive their own (nanny equipped) car.
The reality of course, is that's not going to happen. So we have to deal with students in their cars not learning as "WE" feel they should and make the best of it.


+1. 8)

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:03 pm
by Jad
Dave, I think I have to disagree on a couple things:

First the 944's do not need to be ugly :roflmao:

Second, for no good reason, the thought of you as Czar just scares me. :shock:

Other than that :beerchug:

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:37 pm
by mrondeau
Jad wrote:Dave, I think I have to disagree on a couple things:

First the 944's do not need to be ugly :roflmao:

Second, for no good reason, the thought of you as Czar just scares me. :shock:

Other than that :beerchug:


:roflmao:

Re: Slow Car Fast- Vintage thoughts

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:14 pm
by Greg Phillips

Re: Slow Car Fast

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:43 pm
by LUCKY DAVE
944's do not need to be ugly

True, just take a look at Adriano's car.

Second, for no good reason, the thought of you as Czar just scares me. :shock:

Me too :lol:

Re: Slow Car Fast- Vintage thoughts

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:09 pm
by mrondeau
Greg Phillips wrote:Another R&T column:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsport ... ntage-car/

Greg


Great article.