Slow Car Fast

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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Jad on Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:50 pm

+1, great article.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Gary Burch on Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:18 am

on driving an old slow car...
it may not be fast, but it's fun,
it's a lot of work though,
and sometimes it is fast
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Re: Slow Car Fast- Vintage thoughts

Postby Dan Chambers on Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:08 am

Greg Phillips wrote:Another R&T column:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsport ... ntage-car/

Greg


+2. Excellent article.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Mike on Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:09 am

+3 enjoyed the article, thank you for the link Greg. :rockon:
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Dan Chambers on Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:19 am

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Old Car = Yes, Slow Car = Not likely

Postby kleggo on Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:01 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMHrYiNFIQM

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Re: Old Car = Yes, Slow Car = Not likely

Postby mrondeau on Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:04 pm

kleggo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMHrYiNFIQM

Chris Harris's former greenie


:rockon:
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby GT3 on Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:19 pm

Dan, as we discussed quickly at the AX the other day, the 997 is a whole different beast when it comes to TC and ESC.

It is like comparing an old Intel Pentium II to an Intel I9 processor, in laymen’s terms the computers of 2016 run circles around the ones of 14 years prior.

Well since we seem to like the Road&Track articles here is another good one to read: https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cultur ... our-nanny/
Last edited by GT3 on Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby sf.in.sd on Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:04 pm

Nice article, and nice job driving a fast car fast yesterday Alain!

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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby GT3 on Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:34 am

sf.in.sd wrote:Nice article, and nice job driving a fast car fast yesterday Alain!

Shawn


Thank you Shawn, and look what you started here.

Funny thing though, I was thinking tonight, 15/20 years from now when all these old timers retire, and the guys like myself still driving GT cars saying how those are the real cars to drive, not those crazy flying cars taking the TTOD!
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Mike on Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:52 am

GT3 wrote:Well since we seem the link the Road&Track articles here is another good one to read: https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cultur ... our-nanny/


Agree nannies and automated automotive systems today are incredible.
Today towing your race car with modern pick up truck nannies is much safer than 20 years ago.

The GT3 is a top notch nanny car, still the driving credit gets shaded by thoughts like these from your link.

The truth, contrary to what you've heard (or read in a car magazine), is that a flashing stability-control light usually signals the hard work of a car's development engineers reacting to your incompetence.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Jad on Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:49 am

No one is saying the modern nannies are not absolutely amazing drivers. My point all along has been that the nannies are the great driver, and the person behind the wheel isn't the one driving the car. That is OK as long as they are in a car with great nannies, but I worry about the consequences of the driver thinking they know what they are doing and getting into a car without the nannies and learning the hard way how much the nannies were doing.

It is very frustrating as an instructor. If student gets on the gas way too early, the only consequence is the student smoothly pulls out of the corner complaining the stupid car is holding him back. :banghead: They go into a corner too fast and brake hard, the car adjusts the shocks and brakes individual wheels and it turns right down to the apex where the steering wheel is pointed. There are no consequences to doing it wrong, so it is impossible to get the feel for doing it right. All methods work and produce similar results as the nannies are so good.

Turn off all the nannies as much as Porsche allows and still get a good time, means you are driving, doing it with the nannies on means THE NANNIES are driving and the driver is often not aware of it. It is VERY VERY hard to drive a modern GT car fast and turning off the nannies should only be done in a very controlled environment as the car will spin hard, fast and often without them.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Dan Chambers on Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:38 am

Jad wrote:No one is saying the modern nannies are not absolutely amazing drivers. My point all along has been that the nannies are the great driver, and the person behind the wheel isn't the one driving the car. That is OK as long as they are in a car with great nannies, but I worry about the consequences of the driver thinking they know what they are doing and getting into a car without the nannies and learning the hard way how much the nannies were doing.

It is very frustrating as an instructor. If student gets on the gas way too early, the only consequence is the student smoothly pulls out of the corner complaining the stupid car is holding him back. :banghead: They go into a corner too fast and brake hard, the car adjusts the shocks and brakes individual wheels and it turns right down to the apex where the steering wheel is pointed. There are no consequences to doing it wrong, so it is impossible to get the feel for doing it right. All methods work and produce similar results as the nannies are so good.

Turn off all the nannies as much as Porsche allows and still get a good time, means you are driving, doing it with the nannies on means THE NANNIES are driving and the driver is often not aware of it. It is VERY VERY hard to drive a modern GT car fast and turning off the nannies should only be done in a very controlled environment as the car will spin hard, fast and often without them.


+1.

Nannies are great ... until Nannies fail. A "well-trained" driver in a Nanny car can most-likely save their butts if the Nannies fail. :mrgreen: A not-so-well trained driver in a Nanny car most-likely won't be able to save their own butts in time :cry: because they lack the skills, experience, and knowledge to correct the conditions of risk that suddenly arise when the electronics turn off. Don't think it can happen? Think again. I know this, because I've seen this ... and experienced this ... from the right-hand-seat. It's not pretty. :banghead:

As far as defining what a "good driver" is... that's up to each of us to determine individually. One good way: how much faster is the driver with the Nannies on vs. with the Nannies off? Finding out could be very risky. :roll:
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby GT3 on Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:40 am

Jad wrote:No one is saying the modern nannies are not absolutely amazing drivers. My point all along has been that the nannies are the great driver, and the person behind the wheel isn't the one driving the car. That is OK as long as they are in a car with great nannies, but I worry about the consequences of the driver thinking they know what they are doing and getting into a car without the nannies and learning the hard way how much the nannies were doing.

It is very frustrating as an instructor. If student gets on the gas way too early, the only consequence is the student smoothly pulls out of the corner complaining the stupid car is holding him back. :banghead: They go into a corner too fast and brake hard, the car adjusts the shocks and brakes individual wheels and it turns right down to the apex where the steering wheel is pointed. There are no consequences to doing it wrong, so it is impossible to get the feel for doing it right. All methods work and produce similar results as the nannies are so good.

Turn off all the nannies as much as Porsche allows and still get a good time, means you are driving, doing it with the nannies on means THE NANNIES are driving and the driver is often not aware of it. It is VERY VERY hard to drive a modern GT car fast and turning off the nannies should only be done in a very controlled environment as the car will spin hard, fast and often without them.


Well Jad, this is were we can agree to disagree.

To assume all GT drivers are the same and would have no idea how to drive a slower car with no modern electronics (Won't call them nannies anymore) is kind of naive, and when you make comments like "the one behind the wheel isn't driving" is border line insulting, even though I know personally you are not trying to be.

Our cars also weigh more, and are longer then cars like yours so they are not SO easy to drive as one would assume or at least drive fast.

I can promise you that I can personally get in a slower car with no modern electronics on and do just fine because of other experience I have like go kart racing and hours on top of hours of simulation racing.

I can promise you if I am not smooth with my inputs on cars like a SR8, or a Skip Barber on the simulator I will spin out on the first turn, and I take what I learn to my GT car.

I also had the pleasure of driving an SR4 and Spring Mtn and had no spin outs at all.

As the article says, you can use these lights as tools to help become a better driver by noticing when they are coming on and trying to figure out what you did wrong to make them come on and correct it, which is a lot better then the alternative which is going off track and causing damage to the car.

And please please please stop comparing cars computers from 14+ years ago from the ones of today, my cell phone in my pocket has more and better computing power then those cars had and they will continue to get better on these GT cars, but I can also promise you that the programming is not the same on a GT car then all the others for the simple reason is they know we are tracking these cars so they make them more forgiving, or should I say allowing then others.

If I get on the gas to early on a car like mine and try to hold that through the turn, even the electronics won't stop me from going off track on the other end, on a older car with older technology, maybe because of how invasive they can be.

If you are frustrated with instructing a person in a GT car, then maybe people should learn the car better because they are not going away any time soon.

Watch the dash for the TC or ESC light blinking on those trouble corners and then explain why the loss of power and help them correct it rather then banging you head.

With all these new GT cars coming into the club if you are an instructor you become someone limited with your training because you don’t really know the car you are in and what 10/10 really is or maybe trying to teach the line of a 1981 Porsche which is not the line for a modern 991+ GT car.

Just like any teacher if you want to stay with the times, you have to keep up to date with the all new cars and the technology it comes with.

Not saying that is an easy thing to do due to various reasons, but the GT car drivers of today will be the instructors of tomorrow.

Dan Andrews brings up some very good points and I totally get what he is saying in a whole different way being a GT car driver.

Yes, Dan C is an awesome instructor, and I had the pleasure of being his student last year at Buttonwillow, it was my first time there so I was very happy to have a second set of eyes.

Ironically though my times became much faster once he got out of the car, 9 seconds faster to be exact.

Not saying he didn’t do a good job, but there is that argument if I had an instructor that knew my GT car better from experience, then I would have been able to learn a little more. (I still love you Dan)

This thread will never end... God save us all please from this madness!
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Dan Chambers on Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:07 am

GT3 wrote:
Well Jad, this is were we can agree to disagree.

To assume all GT drivers are the same and would have no idea how to drive a slower car with no modern electronics (Won't call them nannies anymore) is kind of naive, and when you make comments like "the one behind the wheel isn't driving" is border line insulting, even though I know personally you are not trying to be.

Our cars also weigh more, and are longer then cars like yours so they are not SO easy to drive as one would assume or at least drive fast.

I can promise you that I can personally get in a slower car with no modern electronics on and do just fine because of other experience I have like go kart racing and hours on top of hours of simulation racing.

I can promise you if I am not smooth with my inputs on cars like a SR8, or a Skip Barber on the simulator I will spin out on the first turn, and I take what I learn to my GT car.

I also had the pleasure of driving an SR4 and Spring Mtn and had no spin outs at all.

As the article says, you can use these lights as tools to help become a better driver by noticing when they are coming on and trying to figure out what you did wrong to make them come on and correct it, which is a lot better then the alternative which is going off track and causing damage to the car.

And please please please stop comparing cars computers from 14+ years ago from the ones of today, my cell phone in my pocket has more and better computing power then those cars had and they will continue to get better on these GT cars, but I can also promise you that the programming is not the same on a GT car then all the others for the simple reason is they know we are tracking these cars so they make them more forgiving, or should I say allowing then others.

If I get on the gas to early on a car like mine and try to hold that through the turn, even the electronics won't stop me from going off track on the other end, on a older car with older technology, maybe because of how invasive they can be.

If you are frustrated with instructing a person in a GT car, then maybe people should learn the car better because they are not going away any time soon.

Watch the dash for the TC or ESC light blinking on those trouble corners and then explain why the loss of power and help them correct it rather then banging you head.

With all these new GT cars coming into the club if you are an instructor you become someone limited with your training because you don’t really know the car you are in and what 10/10 really is or maybe trying to teach the line of a 1981 Porsche which is not the line for a modern 991+ GT car.

Just like any teacher if you want to stay with the times, you have to keep up to date with the all new cars and the technology it comes with.

Not saying that is an easy thing to do due to various reasons, but the GT car drivers of today will be the instructors of tomorrow.

Dan Andrews brings up some very good points and I totally get what he is saying in a whole different way being a GT car driver.

Yes, Dan C is an awesome instructor, and I had the pleasure of being his student last year at Buttonwillow, it was my first time there so I was very happy to have a second set of eyes.

Ironically though my times became much faster once he got out of the car, 9 seconds faster to be exact.

Not saying he didn’t do a good job, but there is that argument if I had an instructor that knew my GT car better from experience, then I would have been able to learn a little more. (I still love you Dan)

This thread will never end... God save us all please from this madness!


So... your suggesting I held you back? By 9 seconds? Huh... interesting. :roll:
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