Slow Car Fast

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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Mike on Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:45 am

Dan Chambers wrote:
So... your suggesting I held you back? By 9 seconds? Huh... interesting. :roll:


Instructing a new driver in a new gt3rs is worthy of some instructor restraint.
and again he just showed some on the post above lol

The new sports car technology changes will appeal less to some and be championed by others.
For Sure the new car electronics technology is here forever.
In a few years the PCA will have nothing but instructors for cars with nannies. :beerchug:
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ABS, traction control and stability control"
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby GT3 on Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:49 pm

Dan Chambers wrote:
So... your suggesting I held you back? By 9 seconds? Huh... interesting. :roll:


I did not say that, just stating the some facts while looking back at it.

Also when I offered you to drive my car one session on this forum so you can better educate yourself about newer cars and the advanced technology it offers like mine, your original answer was you had absolutely no interest.

Well if you don't want to learn first hand how to drive one of these cars, how can you teach someone else to drive one.

For a total beginner, a different story since you need to teach them other things like the line, when to break, when to take a turn early or late, and all that other important stuff but with a more advanced driver you might just be sitting there with your hands on your laps just assuming the car is driving itself.

Listen, I will be the first person in line saying you have HUGE BALLS for even getting in the car with me without having any idea what my driving style was or how aggressive I drove this insanely fast and beautiful car ;)

I was also the quick to tell you, I will start slow and build speed as I got more comfortable with the track being my first time there and I believe that made you feel better after the experience you had with your first student that weekend.

I originally wrote that prior post last night but at the last second decided I wasn't going to post it because I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings (I think you have a thicker skin then most), but also not offend the people that make this club even possible because without people like you instructing during these events, it would be a total sh*t show out there.

Unfortunately when I saw some of the other posts that followed basically stating again we don't drive our GT cars, they drive themselves i broke down and posted it so hopefully no offense Dan C.

I am just asking people to be a little more open minded, I know that is leaps and bounds for many but an attempt by someone like you could start a more positive effect across the board.

At the end of the day here, we have no one here inspiring to be a professional driver, so why can't we all just enjoy what we brung, and make awesome friends along the way, which btw I feel super blessed for the one's I have made so far.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby cag4 on Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:58 pm

Well Dang! Quite a debate going on here...

Personally, I know that 70RSR has been a harsh instructor. Absolutely no room for error and so tempting to overdrive. But so rewarding when I'm patient, put the car in the right place on the track, and balance the car front/back and side/side.

And jumping in the '01 996 I was so confident as a result that I was able to push in a new car from the start, and be (sort of) competitive in CC-09 (with an SS03 car). Just the chassis sophistication and additional grip from larger tires makes that generation so much more forgiving. But the ABS? Totally cheating ;-)
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Dan Chambers on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:25 am

Alain, please allow me to help you remember:

Ironically though my times became much faster once he got out of the car, 9 seconds faster to be exact.

Not saying he didn’t do a good job, but there is that argument if I had an instructor that knew my GT car better from experience, then I would have been able to learn a little more.


To be sure ... for most readers of this string you are implying... suggesting... hinting, maybe... that you were "faster" ... "9 seconds faster to be exact" once I got out of the car. So, yeah... to the reader you kinda did say that... "to be exact." And I particulary like this this one:
if I had an instructor that knew my GT car better from experience, then I would have been able to learn a little more.


Hmmm. :roll:

Now, I know the written word ... and the emotions that fly on social media... like forums.... is a tricky thing. I've found; more and more people are getting themselves in hot water due to social media (kinda like some Whitehouse workers, maybe?). So, I replied to your post where you were implying being faster after I got out of the car as kind of a reminder that ... like driving on the track ... posting on a social platform like this forum takes patience, control, and a certain undertanding of consequences when applying inputs.

A little anecdote: (OK,... maybe long)

I've been surfing since 1968. (Yes, ninteen SIXTY eight ... I'm old.) I've been teaching people how to surf since 1976 (yes, again ... last century). Similar to Performance Driving; the first thing I cover is surfer's safety; both the rider's, and the surfers around them.

The first task I require of a new surf student: "Swim unaided out to the rest of the surfers in the lineup, wave your hand at me, and swim back to shore. No surfboard. No swimfins. No flotation devises. Just you, your hands and feet, and the waves."

I get a blank look from the student and the.... "But, I can swim! I've been swimming in pools since I was 6 years old."
" Sure you can. Now. Just do as your told, or the lesson's done." is my reply.

Why the cryptic "Sensei" test? Because if you can't save yourself in the water, you have no business surfing. Swimming in the ocean or a river is not swimming a pool. The dynamics of moving water are completely different than stationary water in a pool, or a pond, or a swimming hole.

Relying on your wetsuit for boyancy, your board-leash and surfboard for getting out of a bad situation, and not being able to swim twice the distance from shore to breakers and back again makes you dangerous to yourself, dangerous to me (I've rescued more wannabe's than I care to say), and dangerous to the other people in the water around you. After a student has proven to me that they can swim out to the lineup and back, I can begin working with them, with their board ... with the knowledge and the confidence that they are no longer just "swimming in the pool" but actually proficient enough in the moving waters of the ocean to be safe.

In my opinion;

Performance driving is similar. Cars with Electronic Assistance Technologies are the "pool". Cars without these assisted devices are the ocean. For many of the current drivers that rely heavily on their Electronic Aids to go fast... they need to" get out of the pool" and "swim to the lineup." Until I see them "swim to the lineup and back" ... they're not ready for any advanced instruction... like how to use Elctronic Technology as a tool rather than a safety net. And yes, I do know how to teach students in newer cars how to use their Nannies as a tool... when they are advanced enough as drivers to use them. :wink:

Alain, please don't be offended if someone implies you're not a good driver or a good enough driver. You're a bit new to the sport. There's nothing shameful in being a newer driver or a bit of a rookie. In your case, 2017 Autocross Rookie of the Year is a proud award. Wear it with pride. 8)

Let's have some fun at CVR. :beerchug:
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby gulf911 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:18 am

"Huh, no kidding..." 
 "Boy, I don't know a thing about Instructing." 
 "Gee.... really, Dan?"
"Can you teach me how to be a better Instructor, Dan? I'd just love it if you would."

Patience , control, and very respectful... Yes for sure Dan. :roll: Condescend much?

Never once, Dan, did I show any disrespect. A difference of opinion is not disrespect.
Nor did I say or elude to you were a bad instructor. I am also well aware my points were stating the obvious , maybe you missed that.

until THE CAR steers itself , steps on the gas , and applies the brakes while heading to a corner. It doesnt drive itself. :banghead:

Jad , how many newbie drivers today are going to own a GT (or nannied) car then just get into an old 911 on the track? very rare I would think.
Thanks for the 'spirited' discussion.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby gulf911 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:30 am

GT3 wrote:
Also when I offered you to drive my car one session on this forum so you can better educate yourself about newer cars and the advanced technology it offers like mine, your original answer was you had absolutely no interest.


Hi Alain , I was the nannied red car behind you at streets , was lots of fun chasing you.. :rockon: . As an instructor myself I would welcome the chance to better educate myself on the advanced
technology anytime... :beerchug: I am just a giver.... :D
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby gulf911 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:54 am

Jad wrote:No one is saying the modern nannies are not absolutely amazing drivers. My point all along has been that the nannies are the great driver, and the person behind the wheel isn't the one driving the car. That is OK as long as they are in a car with great nannies, but I worry about the consequences of the driver thinking they know what they are doing and getting into a car without the nannies and learning the hard way how much the nannies were doing.

It is very frustrating as an instructor. If student gets on the gas way too early, the only consequence is the student smoothly pulls out of the corner complaining the stupid car is holding him back. :banghead: They go into a corner too fast and brake hard, the car adjusts the shocks and brakes individual wheels and it turns right down to the apex where the steering wheel is pointed. There are no consequences to doing it wrong, so it is impossible to get the feel for doing it right. All methods work and produce similar results as the nannies are so good.

Turn off all the nannies as much as Porsche allows and still get a good time, means you are driving, doing it with the nannies on means THE NANNIES are driving and the driver is often not aware of it. It is VERY VERY hard to drive a modern GT car fast and turning off the nannies should only be done in a very controlled environment as the car will spin hard, fast and often without them.


Jad , I would say , for an experienced driver they were exploiting the technology of the car to still hit the apex... :lol:
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Dan Chambers on Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:07 am

gulf911 wrote:"Huh, no kidding..." 
 "Boy, I don't know a thing about Instructing." 
 "Gee.... really, Dan?"
"Can you teach me how to be a better Instructor, Dan? I'd just love it if you would."

Patience , control, and very respectful... Yes for sure Dan. :roll: Condescend much?

Never once, Dan, did I show any disrespect. A difference of opinion is not disrespect.
Nor did I say or elude to you were a bad instructor. I am also well aware my points were stating the obvious , maybe you missed that.

until THE CAR steers itself , steps on the gas , and applies the brakes while heading to a corner. It doesnt drive itself. :banghead:

Jad , how many newbie drivers today are going to own a GT (or nannied) car then just get into an old 911 on the track? very rare I would think.
Thanks for the 'spirited' discussion.


Well, Dan. I guess it's all about interpretation.

It's very difficult to communicate in writing vs. face to face. Without the aid of facial expression and voice inflection, messages can get misinterpreted. My ability (or lack there of) to interpret your "difference of opinion" and "stating the obvious" were received far differently than how they were intended, I'm sure. And yes, I found your "inferrred "message that I didn't know cars, the difference between modern and older cars' suspesnsions, my ability to drive a modern car with electronic aids, or my ability to "teach the basics" very insulting. That's just my interpretation of your post. If you don't like the fact that I'm insulted, that's regretful.

I own up to my smarmy post. It was written in haste and in anger, and not what I'm usually about. I regret that post.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby kleggo on Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:24 am

GT3 wrote:
Jad wrote:
Just like any teacher if you want to stay with the times, you have to keep up to date with the all new cars and the technology it comes with.



Very true.
3 - 4 years ago?
PCNA or someone similar invited a limited cadre of instructors to their facility to become more familiar with changing technology (HW / SW changes) included in modern cars.

The attendees that I spoke to said it was a positive experience.

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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby kleggo on Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:40 am

GT3 wrote:Dan, as we discussed quickly at the AX the other day, the 997 is a whole different beast when it comes to TC and ESC.

It is like comparing an old Intel Pentium II to an Intel I9 processor, in laymen’s terms the computers of 2016 run circles around the ones of 14 years prior.

Well since we seem to like the Road&Track articles here is another good one to read: https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cultur ... our-nanny/


I laughed at this part................"WHEN I WENT ON MY FIRST (and last) skydive, I didn't see anybody ostentatiously throwing their reserve chutes in the garbage.".

but must question this;
"When you see the stability control light flash, ask yourself what you did to upset the car's balance and fix it the next time."
It's a good sentiment, but how easy is it to see a nanny light flash (briefly) when you're looking up and down the track???

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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby 911TED on Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:02 am

Just a technical analogy to consider based on my 30 yr work career @ Rockwell / Boeing.
When CNC machines first came on the scene in the early 70's they were ridiculed as being very unreliable, hard to program, but highly repeatable and accurate, soon the reliability and ease of programming was improved and the rest is history, career over.
The new modern cars have the same attribute, a very repeatable level of performance, for a process this is a good thing.

Teaching performance driving is a process with all due respect and it will be easier in the future due to the repeatable level of performance the cars can achieve and the feedback from the real time data the car can now produce. Looking forward to seeing that real time Porsche performance data sometime in the near future. Agents of change is not an easy role to play, but time marches on as so does technology and processes,
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby GT3 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:25 am

gulf911 wrote:
GT3 wrote:
Also when I offered you to drive my car one session on this forum so you can better educate yourself about newer cars and the advanced technology it offers like mine, your original answer was you had absolutely no interest.


Hi Alain , I was the nannied red car behind you at streets , was lots of fun chasing you.. :rockon: . As an instructor myself I would welcome the chance to better educate myself on the advanced
technology anytime... :beerchug: I am just a giver.... :D


Yep... We were the 2 cars running a few laps together with full electronics on passing everyone else that had none... Good times ;)

BTW, you're my hero... Thought I was going to be in this battle all by myself until you came along.

For the record, a lot of GT owners as of lately have been giving me feedback in reference to this thread but don't want to reply on here for the simple reason they just don't want to get involved and I understand why not now.

For me... Never been the quiet guy in the corner... Sometimes a good thing, sometimes not so much.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby GT3 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:15 pm

kleggo wrote:It's a good sentiment, but how easy is it to see a nanny light flash (briefly) when you're looking up and down the track???

Craig


Easier then you think...

If you unsettle the car bad enough or get on the gas to fast coming out of a turn you will lose power and you will feel it, which then your eyes naturally look at the display to see whats going on.

Even though the light might be blinking for one second, on the track that seems like an eternity when you are waiting for the power to kick back on.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby LUCKY DAVE on Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:49 pm

This place is finally starting to feel like a real forum, with thoughtful exchange of ideas (and arguing LOL). In the past this forum has been as quiet as a graveyard.
It's about time.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Cajundaddy on Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:08 am

Hand raised for a session in the GT3RS to better understand these advanced stability electronics... purely in the interest of being a more effective instructor of course. 8)


So is the Miata challenge on in Chuckwalla? I would swap cars with Hassan for a session just to explore my own comfort level in a well set up slow car.

:rockon:
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