Slow Car Fast

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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby GT3 on Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:57 pm

ScandinavianFlick wrote:Here's a simple self-check any driver can perform:

In a safe environment like autocross, do your first two laps in a session with the electronics on. Then do the next 3-4 in the same session with them off. If you can get within one second of your electronics-on time, then you can be confident that you have a working knowledge of how to stay near a car's limits. If not, then there is more to learn. Fortunately, one of the great things about this club is that there are many generous members with slow cars who are usually willing to share for a day in exchange for a beer or two :beerchug:


I don't know Andrew, you are a very good driver and know how to make your car dance on that stadium surface, but on a high HP car like ours, you might be asking for trouble just like what happened to Danna the other day that ended up very lucky in that situation.

Truthfully no one has to prove anything to themselves or anyone else for that matter, asking anyone to turn the electronics off on these high HP cars is just a recipe for disaster, especially when you can exploit them just like Dan mentioned to your benefit.

In the last AX I did something different that I never did before, which was downshifted back to first before those long straights where the PDK naturally wanted it in 2nd gear, and then slammed on the gas knowing my tires might be slipping, but at the same time knew the computer was modulating the throttle for me better then I would ever be able to until I regained full traction.

Look forward to seeing you @CW this weekend!
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby ttweed on Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:45 am

GT3 wrote: Here is the million dollar question though... What is the argument when a GT car driver without the years of track experience goes faster than another GT car driver that has many years experience in those older less forgiving cars?

Honestly, the first thing I wonder about in comparing any times between cars on any track is "What tires were they on, and how many heat cycles on them?" Were you on Hoosiers? Was Dan A. on Sport Cup 2s? RE-71Rs?

First off SOW is not a HP track and you know this, and a GT4 might even have some edge due to the weight and size difference...
SOW is less of a HP track than WSIR, but an extra 115 HP is still very useful and advantageous there. Look at the fastest laps ever turned there and they are all high HP cars. Even a big, fat Camaro SS 1LE is faster than a GT4. I think the only kind of track where a GT4 would have an advantage over a GT3RS due to size, weight, and mid-engine balance is the tightest, slowest type of AX track with constant turning and no straights. SOW is nothing like that.


GT3 wrote:In the last AX I did something different that I never did before, which was downshifted back to first before those long straights where the PDK naturally wanted it in 2nd gear, and then slammed on the gas knowing my tires might be slipping, but at the same time knew the computer was modulating the throttle for me better then I would ever be able to until I regained full traction.
I remember when you complained bitterly last year about the TC holding you back when you got on the gas on corner exit. Now you are bragging about exploiting it? My contention is that you would have been faster if you had the feel, technique, and finesse to modulate the throttle perfectly to match your tire grip in that situation.

TT
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby kleggo on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:40 am

cag4 wrote:Here’s a reminder of why we care so much about this topic:

https://www.facebook.com/festivalofspeed/videos/1884509421559382/


Thanks Charles.
Tasty viddy!
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby kleggo on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:46 am

GT3 wrote:
In the last AX I did something different that I never did before, which was downshifted back to first before those long straights where the PDK naturally wanted it in 2nd gear, and then slammed on the gas knowing my tires might be slipping, but at the same time knew the computer was modulating the throttle for me better then I would ever be able to until I regained full traction.


hmmmmmmmm up until this point I was following your line of argument and could see / understand you point of view.
Now?
We differ.

I'm out.

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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby ttweed on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:47 am

GT3 wrote: I don't know Andrew, you are a very good driver and know how to make your car dance on that stadium surface, but on a high HP car like ours, you might be asking for trouble just like what happened to Danna the other day that ended up very lucky in that situation.

Was Danna running with PSM off when she spun at the finish last week?

TT
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Mike on Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:13 am

ttweed wrote: My contention is that you would have been faster if you had the feel, technique, and finesse to modulate the throttle perfectly to match your tire grip in that situation.
TT


Nice to see you TT in your white stallion at the AX.
With all of your experience in all cars do you feel after years of driving on the limit with your state of the art electronic car that you could get back in your old 911 and still have the feel, technique, and finesse to modulate the throttle perfectly as you did for decades?
I have concerns the new electronics would desensitize my years of sensitivity acquired from driving manual cars with no ABS.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby mrondeau on Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:32 am

Mike wrote:
ttweed wrote: My contention is that you would have been faster if you had the feel, technique, and finesse to modulate the throttle perfectly to match your tire grip in that situation.
TT


Nice to see you TT in your white stallion at the AX.
With all of your experience in all cars do you feel after years of driving on the limit with your state of the art electronic car that you could get back in your old 911 and still have the feel, technique, and finesse to modulate the throttle perfectly as you did for decades?
I have concerns the new electronics would desensitize my years of sensitivity acquired from driving manual cars with no ABS.



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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby ttweed on Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:40 pm

Mike wrote: Nice to see you TT in your white stallion at the AX.
With all of your experience in all cars do you feel after years of driving on the limit with your state of the art electronic car that you could get back in your old 911 and still have the feel, technique, and finesse to modulate the throttle perfectly as you did for decades?
I have concerns the new electronics would desensitize my years of sensitivity acquired from driving manual cars with no ABS.

Hi Mike,

Short answer, yes, with some qualification. I haven't really changed my driving style much in the GT3, but getting back into an old 911 would take some acclimatization.
1.The heel/toe rev-matching that I practiced so long to perfect is undoubtedly rusty by now, after 3 years of pulling paddle shifters. I would also have to be more sympathetic to the equipment on standing starts and shifts. The GT3 is a bullet-proof no-brainer--just press the go pedal. :-)
2. I would have to be very attentive to threshold braking again, as ABS is a godsend in not flat-spotting tires. I would also have to dial back the aggressive trail-braking that the GT3 is so comfortable doing (and actually requires, since it inherently understeers more).
3. Though things would be happening much slower, giving me more time to react, I would still have to be a lot more careful in building up speed to find the limit more gradually, as exceeding the limits in an old 911 has much more severe consequences than just having a nanny come on and spoil your run. You can be far more aggressive at testing the limits with PSM active without courting disaster, so I would have to be more incremental in building up speed on a course again.

If you're thinking of jumping into the 21st century sometime soon, no worries, mate!
:rockon:
TT
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Mike on Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:08 pm

ttweed wrote:
If you're thinking of jumping into the 21st century sometime soon, no worries, mate!
:rockon:
TT


If we did good to know Yvonne and I could have the same instructor. :beerchug:
You were ripping past the bud sign when we left.
The Q has been the perfect wave for you. :rockon:
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ABS, traction control and stability control"
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby ttweed on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:17 pm

Mike wrote: The Q has been the perfect wave for you. :rockon:

Better get it while you can, braddah. It may be going away this year.
If we did good to know Yvonne and I could have the same instructor. :beerchug:

Ah, the "good ol' days." I remember instructing all 3 of these lovely ladies.
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You, though, I had to cut you off when you started getting faster than me!  :bowdown:
TT
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby GT3 on Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:18 pm

ttweed wrote:
GT3 wrote: Here is the million dollar question though... What is the argument when a GT car driver without the years of track experience goes faster than another GT car driver that has many years experience in those older less forgiving cars?

Honestly, the first thing I wonder about in comparing any times between cars on any track is "What tires were they on, and how many heat cycles on them?" Were you on Hoosiers? Was Dan A. on Sport Cup 2s? RE-71Rs?

Yes very good questions, and I am sure Rich and I had newer tires then Dan did, but tires on the RS don't last very long, maybe 3 track days so we are forced to get new tires for each track event.

ttweed wrote:
GT3 wrote: First off SOW is not a HP track and you know this, and a GT4 might even have some edge due to the weight and size difference...
SOW is less of a HP track than WSIR, but an extra 115 HP is still very useful and advantageous there. Look at the fastest laps ever turned there and they are all high HP cars. Even a big, fat Camaro SS 1LE is faster than a GT4. I think the only kind of track where a GT4 would have an advantage over a GT3RS due to size, weight, and mid-engine balance is the tightest, slowest type of AX track with constant turning and no straights. SOW is nothing like that.

Not sure i agree with you on SOW, but comparing it to a 1LE just put a smile on my face because I already know this ;)
I think I will take that beast out on the last Chuckwalla of the year, just been scared to because I am afraid I won't like the RS anymore after taking it to a track :roflmao:


ttweed wrote:
GT3 wrote: In the last AX I did something different that I never did before, which was downshifted back to first before those long straights where the PDK naturally wanted it in 2nd gear, and then slammed on the gas knowing my tires might be slipping, but at the same time knew the computer was modulating the throttle for me better then I would ever be able to until I regained full traction.
I remember when you complained bitterly last year about the TC holding you back when you got on the gas on corner exit. Now you are bragging about exploiting it? My contention is that you would have been faster if you had the feel, technique, and finesse to modulate the throttle perfectly to match your tire grip in that situation.

TT

This was taken out of context... In an earlier thread Dan A made a joke/comment "Jad , I would say , for an experienced driver they were exploiting the technology of the car to still hit the apex... :lol:" I was just continuing the joke since so many think the car is driving itself. Very hard to keep up with this thread with all the comments and opinions, so on.

Here is a private video of a couple laps at the last AX, where I downshifted to 1st in 3 sections because I had a better hole shot coming onto those straight, could have left it in 2nd which is where the car wanted to be but I think this was faster.

Also an AX is much different then a big track simply because of the speed and you have to time your inputs much different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdiKjMH ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby rwalker on Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:40 pm

I can't see that video, Alain. Would love to.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby GT3 on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:14 pm

rwalker wrote:I can't see that video, Alain. Would love to.


Try now.
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby rwalker on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:17 pm

got it, thx
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Re: Slow Car Fast

Postby Mike on Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:25 am

ttweed wrote:
Ah, the "good ol' days." I remember instructing all 3 of these lovely ladies.
TT


The ladies all went to PDS.
TT having you instruct Yvonne, Gloria and Sheila was awesome, thank you very very much!
You were great considering Yvonne rarely drives the 911. She was very nervous on Friday and feeling very confident by Sunday. 8) 8) 8)
She learned some, retained some and most importantly kinda understands my driving style.
Although Sunday afternoon on my instructor bonus laps after her PDS school she scorned me that I was driving too fast on the AX track. :roflmao:

Betcha can't do this with your nannies on. :wink:
https://youtu.be/WSoc6ch8Fss
Michael_Gagen :D

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ABS, traction control and stability control"
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