being an instructor...

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Re: being an instructor...

Postby GT3 on Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:11 pm

I do pay those students for my corner working position, and I have to say those "young" guys move a lot faster than us drivers to pick those cones back up.

I do agree someone should tell them the correct rules if Mark Curran has not done so already, which would surprise me.

Need to find a compromise it seems or there won't be enough instructors to bring on the new people if they don't sign up for instructing.

Not fair to not even give them time to eat :(
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Re: being an instructor...

Postby Gary Burch on Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:24 pm

I don't like corner working but I don't mind doing it
don't like doing it for 2 shifts
if a rookie college student can do it,
seems an adult that owns and is driving a porsche should be able to figure it out on their own,
or with a minimal amount of instruction.
also, I think it is a perfect opportunity for a student to take the instruction they have received during the day
and put to use in timed runs SOLO.
makes no sense for the instructor to go.
students rely on their instructor's inputs, to the point of just following commands.
alone, they would have to think about and process what they did in the practice laps.
instructor could debrief them at the end of the day
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Re: Paid autocross cornerworkers

Postby ttweed on Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:50 pm

KeithV wrote:In my opinion (and per the SDR instructor written test by-the-way) cornerworking is a) a great way to watch and learn the right way through a portion of the track versus the wrong (or less efficient) way...
You can do that by walking around the perimeter of the track with your student, and nothing is more direct than driving or being in a car driving the track. I actually have experienced being too involved with explaining something we saw on track to a student while cornerworking, and missed seeing something we needed to respond to coming down the track. It actually isn't a very good time to be "teaching" when you're cornerworking--you need to be focused on the traffic at all times.

b) a good way to contribute back to the club/event

One of many. We need set-up people, logistics people, starters, timing crew, etc. as well. I come every event at 6:30 and work tech inspection, and spend many hours per month volunteering in non-driving event modes, so you can't shame me with that argument...

[snipped]

Personally, I don’t think that the paid student cornerworkers are a good option because they often show up after the drivers meeting and miss the cornerworking safety meeting, and as a consequence are often not trained in how we (SDR) do it.


That shouldn't happen. Wouldn't take long to train them how we do it, and they certainly shouldn't be on the course without such an understanding. These are smart kids and I'm sure they can learn fast. Glad you are working to make sure that happens.

To me the problem with paid cornerworkers is they are not autocrossers and also have no skin in the game.

Is that right? I thought these kids were from the FSAE team at UCSD? Part of the national FSAE competition is an autocross.
https://www.scribd.com/document/317968244/2017-18-Fsae-Rules-Final[/quote]
Their "skin in the game" is that they don't do a good job, they don't keep the job.

I have been around this game as long as you, Keith, and worked my share of corners. I understand the difficulties involved in paid corner workers for autocross events, and have seen the idea get shot down many times in the past. I understand the idea of a paid crew taking over the full cornerworking duty isn't ever going to fly, but I sure like the idea of having an option to buy a cornerworker to fill in for you once in awhile, and I actually like the idea of supporting the FSAE team as well. I was in particularly bad physical shape from an overdose of yard work at home during the two days before, so I gave them $30 for the first time on Sunday to work corners for me, and I'd do it again under the same conditions. One thing I will never do any more is work tech in the morning and then work corners twice during the day. Sorry.

That's my $0.02,
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Re: being an instructor...

Postby ttweed on Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:08 pm

sf.in.sd wrote:I just don't like going from car to car to cornerworking to cornerworking to car to car and then have it be well into the afternoon before I get a break to eat. I like eating.

This is exactly what made me quit instructing three years ago. I was coming off a bad cold and already weak to begin, it was a 105F day, and it was 2:30pm before I could eat, after being there at 6:30am. I could barely keep myself hydrated and was totally out of energy for timed runs. I argued at the next instructor meeting that it shouldn't be mandatory to work corners with your student, that they could be paired with an experienced driver if necessary, but was shot down with the argument that working corners with your student was an important part of instructing. I was done with it right then, and have only occasionally given rides to experienced drivers since, which I learned is "coaching," not "instructing."

So be it. I helped a lot of people become better drivers over the 17 years before that, made some good friends and got some satisfaction out of that, was able to get twice the exposure to the track to help me in timed runs, which is a bit of an advantage, but I don't miss it that much and am actually not physically capable of it any more.

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Re: being an instructor...

Postby Cajundaddy on Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:47 am

Keeping the instructor position manageable is an important part of this game because if it becomes too demanding, qualified instructors will politely decline to volunteer and this limits opportunities for new drivers. I see this often in DE with only 7 spots available for green novice drivers and many are turned away due to a lack of willing instructors. We have had these discussions before in both AX and TT to try and keep things more manageable with some limited successes. Other PCA regions around the country do things quite differently so it is always good to get fresh input and adapt where needed to keep the club driving program healthy. Making sure that the instructor demands are manageable and introducing our sport to lots of new PCA drivers needs to be a significant part of our event planning.

Good discussion.
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Re: being an instructor...

Postby 911TED on Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:13 pm

OCR has been using paid students from the SAE automotive program at the local colleges to do course working for folks who choose not to do it or don't get around well. It has become an additional way to garner funds for the AX program too as a result
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Re: being an instructor...

Postby Calafer on Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:57 pm

It seems to me that at any given AX event there are more available instructors than students. By the time we have the morning instructors meeting the CDI's already know exactly how many students are present and how many instructors are at said meeting so I feel that a possible solution (depending on the total number of instructors present) might be to either create 2-person instructor teams to share the instructor duties or at least ask those instructors who are not assigned students to take over the corner working stint of a student assigned instructor. In other words try to distribute the workload between ALL available instructors instead of the current all or nothing approach.

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