Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby kleggo on Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:29 pm

GT3 wrote:And oh yea.. Gear ratio being lower on an RS over a GT3 car... Where do you even come up with this stuff??

Left is 2016 RS ratios, right is 2016 GT3 ratios...

Know your facts before you make proposals like this trying to add 100 pts to us over GT3 cars :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Please send your comments to ruleproposals@zone8.org.

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby GT3 on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:57 pm

I would like to state that the first proposal is titled incorrectly.

It should be "Add CC17 class for cars over 1124 total points" not "Add CC17 class for GT3RS with Upgraded Tires"

Cars are evolving, so should our classes.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby GT3 on Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:57 pm

So I sent in my comments in reference to certain proposals.

I am posting a copy of that email to help get support by other members to send in there comments to keep this hobby/sport fun and not make all these rules that will suck the life out of that.

Please email your comments to ruleproposals@zone8.org

Don't just sit around and do nothing when you can actually make a difference.

I also encourage others to place a copy of there comments here as well.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

**Driving Event Proposal #4b – Zone 8 Solo Permit Endorsement for “DE Qualified Only”
Currently you can not solo drive unless your instructor gives recommendation and signs you off, and CDI goes on a test drive with you which I believe has been a good way to make sure a driver is ready for solo driving since we have very good instructors and excellent CDI’s.

**Driving Event Proposal #4c – Zone 8 Solo Permit Endorsement for “Electronic Aides Required”
To begin with how can you even enforce a rule like this since a solo driver at any time can turn off his TC/ESC without anyone knowing, and to encourage someone to drive without these safety features sounds like a recipe for disaster.
People should be able to turn these safety features off as they feel more comfortable with the car not just to get a stamp in their log book.

** Drivers Using Electronic Aids Must Place an “N” Across the Rear Window
Now this is the biggest joke of them all… You want people you drive with an N on their car because they use their TC/ESC?
To begin with this is not a current issue and does not solve or help anything moving forward other then to mock people who drive with these SAFTEY features on.
If anything, it should be the opposite where a car with NO TC/ESC safety features should have a big NO on the back of there cars since it seems those are the cars going off track more often and should be able to warn others of their danger.
Let me also add that the N for “Nannies” is a derogatory term referring to a car that takes no driver skill to drive since the car is driving itself with the “Nannies”.

** Driving Event Proposal #5 – Separate Performance Package Points Assessment for 997/991 GT2RS and GT3RS
To give 100 points just for the word RS is just crazy.
The person who obviously made these proposals don’t actually know the difference between the GT3 and RS.
To begin with there is no differences in gear ratio which can be looked up on provided Car and Driver link below where it shows all gear ratios for both cars.
The down force on the 991.1 RS is fully achieved at 150mph and since we don’t go to many tracks where we can even hit 150mph, it is a moot point.
Actually one could argue that the larger wing on the RS might even create more drag compared to the GT3 which would not be a positive add to the tracks we go to.
There really isn’t that much different between a GT3 and a RS, 0 to 60 on a GT3 is 3.1, on an RS, it is 3.0. The main difference between them is 25HP, and there is only a 20lb difference in weight.
A GT3 is a class lower then the RS at CC14 where a stock RS is CC15, and with better then stock tires are CC16 so according to zone8 point system the RS is already considered a higher level car then the GT3.
One major advantage the RS DOES have over the GT3 is being able to put bigger tires on them, but get penalized for the wider tires by quite a few points.

**My personal comments about these proposals, it is very obvious that one person wrote all these proposals and is really trying to target RS cars for no real reason other then his own agenda.
All these proposals do is cause unwanted drama in the club and could cause a lot of resentment between drivers and ultimately cause larger safety issues trying to encourage people to drive without their TC/ESC on before they are ready to do such a thing, not to mention that GT cars work completely different when it comes to their TC/ESC, they have a much larger envelope then non-GT cars and really only kick in when you really need it helping you get out of a “Oh ****” moment a lot easier.
These proposals were more than likely made by someone who drives an older car without these safety features and really don’t have much knowledge of how these GT cars work but assumes that the car drives itself which is a whole other controversy going on right now within the club which I really wish would just stop.

I really enjoy going out to the track with PCA and all the amazing genuine friends I have made along the way that I know will be in my life for a long time.
It is really unfortunate that a small group of people try to find reasons to make this not fun for some of us simple because we are getting faster lap times then before.
When we were slower there were no issues, but now that we are getting faster and showing up on the top times of the day they feel it must be because the car is doing most of the work and we should get penalized for this.
Lets all remember we are not doing this for the prize money and just want to go out and have fun and make friends because at the end of the day that what this is all about, along with going home to your family in one piece.

Thank you for your time and consideration,
Alain Stad

Car and Driver: https://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/91 ... upe-gt3-rs
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby mrondeau on Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:55 am

CC Classes should go up to at least CC18 to handle new cars and keep the fastest classes equitable.

Not sure I agree with the new licensing proposals, especially as it relates to the new cars and whether or not they’re being driven with electronic aids. Seems like a logistic and enforcement nightmare. Wouldn’t it be simpler and better for all drivers to meet the same standards of skill and competency? I’ll send my complete comments to the rules chair.
Last edited by mrondeau on Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby dcarusillo on Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:37 am

On a truly serious note. Great discussion and engagement.
+1 to increasing the CC classes.
-1 for the licensing proposals.
Mark and Alain raise some valid concerns.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Rick Levenson on Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:45 pm

Ok, I'm jumping into the abyss here..... I know it's late in the game but I've been focused on selling my current house and buying another. Why? More garages, of course. Why didn't anyone tell me that this is a such a slippery slope :shock: ?

Proposal #1 -

I'd like to clarify a few things in the proposal since Alain used me and my car as an example.:

1. CC16 has always been considered an "unlimited" class. That is why there is no maximum points ceiling on the class.
2. My car weighs almost exactly the same as the GT3 RS. 3,100+ lbs before I climb in. If anyone has doubts please ask Jae Lee who weighed it. It doesn't weigh 700 lbs less.
3. The GT3 RS has approximately the same horsepower as my car. Mine dyno'd out at 460 hp at the rear wheels. Figuring an approximate 10% loss through the drive train, Alain's 2016 GT3 RS with 500 hp (at the engine) should come in fairly close on the same dyno. This was VERY evident to me at CFOS when it was all I could do to hang with the GT3 RS's on the oval.
4. My car is a full blown, dedicated race car. So are countless others that compete throughout the CC classes. I don't think that should have an impact on the classification.

That said, I've already told Alain and others that I don't mind if another class (or two) is created and I get pushed up into it if everyone feels that would be the most fair. It really doesn't matter to me. What does matter is that everyone is able to compete on a fair playing field and it is clear that Porsche will keep making more technologically advanced, higher horsepower cars that are going to be pushed up higher in the CC rankings so at some point this situation will need to be addressed.


Proposal #4C

As an owner of a 2015 GT3 with all of the electronic aides (aka "nannies"), and as an instructor who has instructed drivers with these types of cars, I actually see some validity to the proposal. However, I think that it doesn't get at the true problem. I think that it might be better if the rules were modified to require that all cars equipped with the nannies have the nannies turned on during any performance driving event unless the driver has been specifically checked out, and the permit endorsed, to drive the car with the nannies off. The permit should specifically state that the driver has been endorsed to drive the specific car with the nannies turned off. Also, I'm only suggesting that this apply to new drivers, or drivers with new high performance cars. I'm not suggesting that already permitted drivers of these cars, who have proven themselves, need to be checked out if they want to turn the nannies off. My concern is really focused on the new driver of a high performance car who could pose a danger if the nannies were turned off and the driver was unaware of the potential changes in the behavior of the car as a result.

The way the proposal reads it would allow a driver that has been checked out in a lower power, non-nanny car, to jump into a GT3 or GT3 RS and drive it with the nannies off without proving that he or she is capable of doing so.


Proposal #4D

Really? :banghead:
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby GT3 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:17 pm

Rick Levenson wrote:Ok, I'm jumping into the abyss here..... I know it's late in the game but I've been focused on selling my current house and buying another. Why? More garages, of course. Why didn't anyone tell me that this is a such a slippery slope :shock: ?

Proposal #1 -

I'd like to clarify a few things in the proposal since Alain used me and my car as an example.:

1. CC16 has always been considered an "unlimited" class. That is why there is no maximum points ceiling on the class.
2. My car weighs almost exactly the same as the GT3 RS. 3,100+ lbs before I climb in. If anyone has doubts please ask Jae Lee who weighed it. It doesn't weigh 700 lbs less.
3. The GT3 RS has approximately the same horsepower as my car. Mine dyno'd out at 460 hp at the rear wheels. Figuring an approximate 10% loss through the drive train, Alain's 2016 GT3 RS with 500 hp (at the engine) should come in fairly close on the same dyno. This was VERY evident to me at CFOS when it was all I could do to hang with the GT3 RS's on the oval.
4. My car is a full blown, dedicated race car. So are countless others that compete throughout the CC classes. I don't think that should have an impact on the classification.



Rick... your my boy and you know it so don't take offense with what I am about to say since it seems my fonts can make people think I am angry :)

To begin with the reason I used your name in the proposal for everyone's knowledge is because when i asked a zone 8 official on how to make a proposal he specifically said to use examples of other cars that would explain how it is an unfair playing field, which I did.

Kind of wish I didn't use your name but I am new to doing these and didn't know it would be displayed like that, live and learn, but like you mentioned I had already talked to you about this.

If I am wrong about the weight of your car, that is my bad only because I was using other similar cars as reference and made an assumption but I guess because of the 4 wheel drive that would add more weight to the car so it makes sense.

As far as dyno, your car is a manual and mine is a automatic so I have a greater loss from crank to the ground by roughly 5+ more so probably around 425hp to the ground, so you have 35 RWHP more then me, and I do not have a switch that I can turn on and instantly give the car more HP when I want it.

The bigger variance is the torque curve since you have turbo's and RS is NA.

As far as full blown race car, I can drive my car on the street and you can not because the car is not street legal.

All I was trying to say, but was going by the zone 8 rules on how to place a proposal is please add more classes and make a 75 point variance per each class.

Cars are evolving faster then we can keep up with, what happens if a 918 shows up to the track and smokes all of us in the current CC16 class.

I mean personally i would jizz in my pants as it was flying by me but would be pissed at the same time I have to be in the same class as it.

I also agree with Mark R. that it should not stop at CC17 since this will be a repeating problem and feel like groundhog day each year as new cars are coming out the way things are going.

As far as the other proposals out there, none really solve a problem because there not a problem to begin with, they just creates more problems...
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby rshon on Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:09 am

This is "Last Call" for 2019 Zone 8 Rules Proposals. We will be accepting proposals until the end of the day on Sunday, July 1, just in case people need Sunday to finish up their submissions.

Updates and new comments for the existing proposals get posted periodically. The latest version can always be found on the Zone 8 Proposed Rules webpage, here:

http://www.zone8.org/events/rules/proposed.php

Please send all proposals and comments to ruleproposals@zone8.org.

FYI - the Zone 8 Rules Committee no longer "harvests" comments from club bulletin boards.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:13 pm

Well since Russell gave us an extra day lets take a minute to look at these proposals and see if we can think of anything to add.
Remember it takes a village to keep the rules up to date or something like that...

And don't do like I do and think of a great proposal the day after the deadline; it's Sunday there's no track event what else are your doing?
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby JayG on Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:49 am

Gee wiz, the RS proposal sounds a lot like the arguments on 200 TW tires that was implemented 2 years ago.

As performance increases, we should add more classes to keep a level playing field. Even with the CC class point system, its not a level playing field.
Let be honest, does anyone think a stock 986S with 200 TW tires is competitive with a race prepared 911 in CC06???
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Ryan McClune on Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:08 am

JayG wrote:Gee wiz, the RS proposal sounds a lot like the arguments on 200 TW tires that was implemented 2 years ago.

As performance increases, we should add more classes to keep a level playing field. Even with the CC class point system, its not a level playing field.
Let be honest, does anyone think a stock 986S with 200 TW tires is competitive with a race prepared 911 in CC06???


Jay, a 986S with RE-71R's is absolutely competitive in CC06.

Frankly, that is an absolutely fantastic BRI setup as well.

Just ask Rob Walker...
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby rwalker on Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:22 am

a stock 986S gets no complaints from me in CC06
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Cajundaddy on Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:50 pm

A little perspective on this:

One of the reasons the CC classes were developed back in 2011 was because the alphabet classes continued to expand with every new model of car until we had about 80 classes and 80-100 drivers at an event. Nearly every driver was just tooling around the course in their very own class kicking their own azz with very minimal competition except a few notable hotly contested classes. It was a fun social event but was drifting away from motorsport. The CC class system offered 16 classes that anyone could mix and match tires and equipment to be VERY competitive in a chosen class. Top 10 BRI is a good place to look if you want to see drivers who have learned to play the CC game well including car preparation, tire choice, and driving skill.

I am sort of a fan of close competition and I favor less classes rather than more. If we had just 10 CC classes with 10-15 drivers in each class, you would need to be very deliberate in choice of tire, running weight, and driving skill level to win your class. I actually think this would be pretty awesome and generate serious competition within CC classes for top dog. No I have not proposed this and I doubt it would ever happen in PCA. Too bad actually. The most fun I ever had in PCA is when there were 8-944 Spec and 2-BSX cars all well prepared and all running (CC05) within 1/2 second of each other. We ran nose to tail every session for 2 days and the Timed Runs came down to a few 10ths spread. That was motorsport bliss.

Until you have really crunched the numbers, weighed your car, carefully considered both tire compound and tire widths to optimize your car for a given class, and seriously upped your driving skills, you are simply not very competitive in motorsport. It doesn't matter which class you run because someone can always come along and beat you rather easily. Don't take my word for it though. Put Mark R. Steve G. or Adam G. in your car for a session on fresh tires and see what happens.

Any car can be a top contender in it's CC class if you are very deliberate about it's setup, tire choice, running weight, and have a keen driver at the wheel. Want to up your game? Find the most competitive class with a lot of top drivers that your car will be a good fit. Choose tires and setup carefully to optimize your car for that class and go get em. This is motorsport and when you win it will mean something. You had to beat 10 other competitive drivers to get to the top. That is a lot more fun to me than running in a personal CC class of one.

JM2C
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby jbrennen on Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:10 pm

Ryan McClune wrote:Jay, a 986S with RE-71R's is absolutely competitive in CC06.

Frankly, that is an absolutely fantastic BRI setup as well.

Just ask Rob Walker...


I jumped in Rob's 986S on Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires (not even close to RE-71R), with no prior experience in the car, and raced Mark Curran's "race prepared 911 in CC06" to a dead heat, and a #5 BRI finish. That's the day I told Rob that his car with RE-71R tires would be capable of winning BRI. He has proven me right, more than once. :rockon:
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby mrondeau on Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:35 pm

Cajundaddy wrote:A little perspective on this:

One of the reasons the CC classes were developed back in 2011 was because the alphabet classes continued to expand with every new model of car until we had about 80 classes and 80-100 drivers at an event. Nearly every driver was just tooling around the course in their very own class kicking their own azz with very minimal competition except a few notable hotly contested classes. It was a fun social event but was drifting away from motorsport. The CC class system offered 16 classes that anyone could mix and match tires and equipment to be VERY competitive in a chosen class. Top 10 BRI is a good place to look if you want to see drivers who have learned to play the CC game well including car preparation, tire choice, and driving skill.

I am sort of a fan of close competition and I favor less classes rather than more. If we had just 10 CC classes with 10-15 drivers in each class, you would need to be very deliberate in choice of tire, running weight, and driving skill level to win your class. I actually think this would be pretty awesome and generate serious competition within CC classes for top dog. No I have not proposed this and I doubt it would ever happen in PCA. Too bad actually. The most fun I ever had in PCA is when there were 8-944 Spec and 2-BSX cars all well prepared and all running (CC05) within 1/2 second of each other. We ran nose to tail every session for 2 days and the Timed Runs came down to a few 10ths spread. That was motorsport bliss.

Until you have really crunched the numbers, weighed your car, carefully considered both tire compound and tire widths to optimize your car for a given class, and seriously upped your driving skills, you are simply not very competitive in motorsport. It doesn't matter which class you run because someone can always come along and beat you rather easily. Don't take my word for it though. Put Mark R. Steve G. or Adam G. in your car for a session on fresh tires and see what happens.

Any car can be a top contender in it's CC class if you are very deliberate about it's setup, tire choice, running weight, and have a keen driver at the wheel. Want to up your game? Find the most competitive class with a lot of top drivers that your car will be a good fit. Choose tires and setup carefully to optimize your car for that class and go get em. This is motorsport and when you win it will mean something. You had to beat 10 other competitive drivers to get to the top. That is a lot more fun to me than running in a personal CC class of one.

JM2C


+1 Well said and quite true. Any car that is set up and properly classed can win its class if driven well. Some classes are harder to win. That's because they have better drivers. If you're not winning your class, ask yourself the following: 1. Is my car properly set up? (aligned, balanced and good tires). 2. Am I driving my car to it's potential? 3. Is my car optimized for it's class? Of the three, the one that matters least is whether the car is optimized for it's class. A properly set up car with a skilled driver who points out at the bottom of the class can still win.

As Dave says, competition against skilled drivers is the best. I was fortunate to compete against Jackie C in our 944's for a few years and the competition was fierce. When I got the silver 911, I was lucky to compete with Steve G. In both cases, we pushed each other to be better drivers and it typically came down to who made the fewest mistakes.


I think the bottom line is to rely on superior driving to win your class, not rule changes. Have fun and keep striving to improve. :beerchug:
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