Steve Grosekemper wrote:I think that is the best proposal of the bunch, too.
But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the nannies.
So how I read the proposal is that if a student drives without the Nannies and gets signed off for their solo permit, they can drive without them anytime they’d like.
So, if the student drives with the Nannies on and gets signed off for their Solo Permit that way, then they have to drive with them on.
Think of it like having a regular drivers license and then having a motorcycle endorsement.
Just seems to makes good safety sense.
afilsinger wrote:Steve Grosekemper wrote:I think that is the best proposal of the bunch, too.
But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the nannies.
So how I read the proposal is that if a student drives without the Nannies and gets signed off for their solo permit, they can drive without them anytime they’d like.
So, if the student drives with the Nannies on and gets signed off for their Solo Permit that way, then they have to drive with them on.
Think of it like having a regular drivers license and then having a motorcycle endorsement.
Just seems to makes good safety sense.
How do you stop the drivers that aren't signed off to run without nannies from turning them off on track? This seems impractical and difficult to enforce.
Steve Grosekemper wrote:afilsinger wrote:Steve Grosekemper wrote:I think that is the best proposal of the bunch, too.
But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the nannies.
So how I read the proposal is that if a student drives without the Nannies and gets signed off for their solo permit, they can drive without them anytime they’d like.
So, if the student drives with the Nannies on and gets signed off for their Solo Permit that way, then they have to drive with them on.
Think of it like having a regular drivers license and then having a motorcycle endorsement.
Just seems to makes good safety sense.
How do you stop the drivers that aren't signed off to run without nannies from turning them off on track? This seems impractical and difficult to enforce.
You mean how do you enforce those who have a solo permit for cars with electronic aids (E-Cars) from turning them off?
It will be painfully obvious when they hit the dirt or something less forgiving.
But that being said we are supposed to be obeying the rules set up for these events.
If you go renegade because you think you know better than the rules there will probably be repercussions.
(Other than the damage to your car)
GT3 wrote:You can still go off track with your TC/ESC on, just ask any of the GT3/RS owners who have never turned them off but still drive the car hard.
Steve Grosekemper wrote:But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the driver aides
Andrew Raines wrote:Steve Grosekemper wrote:But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the driver aides
With all due respect (and reading the they in the above statement to equal student), allowing brand new students to start off in certain cars without the driver aides would make our events less safe. The instructor shouldn't have to analyze this for each student at each event and figure out if the student is on the nannie vs. non-nannie path. Who's going to volunteer to be the instructor of a brand new student with a 500HP GT without nannies? I'll bring the wheel barrel for your cojones.
If we are going to do this then we should do it correctly. Some of these proposals lack sufficient details that they should have been rejected before they showed up as proposals, regardless of whether the proposal has merit.
Steve Grosekemper wrote:Andrew Raines wrote:Steve Grosekemper wrote:But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the driver aides
With all due respect (and reading the they in the above statement to equal student), allowing brand new students to start off in certain cars without the driver aides would make our events less safe. The instructor shouldn't have to analyze this for each student at each event and figure out if the student is on the nannie vs. non-nannie path. Who's going to volunteer to be the instructor of a brand new student with a 500HP GT without nannies? I'll bring the wheel barrel for your cojones.
If we are going to do this then we should do it correctly. Some of these proposals lack sufficient details that they should have been rejected before they showed up as proposals, regardless of whether the proposal has merit.
I did not intend to imply that there is a current rule that brand new students need to start off with driver aides on, and that the proposed rule allows them to drive with them off, making our events less safe than they are now.
There is no such rule currently, or proposed, so both now and under the proposed rule students can drive with or without aides. That decision is made jointly between the student and instructor.
While many instructors would require them on, (me) there are definitely some who may not. It really boils down to being an individual decision. As I said in my post above, if someone gets signed off with the requirement of having the aides on, then later wants to have that requirement removed, all they need to do is become a student again for the purpose of learning to drive without the aides, and eventually get signed off for that once they have demonstrated their competence.
I think the concept that people are having trouble with is the incorrect idea that someone is a student only once, when they are brand new, and after they have a Solo Permit you can never be a student again.
It is quite the opposite: Everyone, no matter what they are signed off for initially can always learn something new in performance driving.
Again it is like passing your automobile drivers license test at 16 and then going back as a student again to get your motorcycle endorsement at 17.
GT3 wrote:
But again, how are you suppose to learn/practice how to drive without TC/ESC if you can't turn them off to begin with?
.
mrondeau wrote:Cajundaddy wrote:A little perspective on this:
One of the reasons the CC classes were developed back in 2011 was because the alphabet classes continued to expand with every new model of car until we had about 80 classes and 80-100 drivers at an event. Nearly every driver was just tooling around the course in their very own class kicking their own azz with very minimal competition except a few notable hotly contested classes. It was a fun social event but was drifting away from motorsport. The CC class system offered 16 classes that anyone could mix and match tires and equipment to be VERY competitive in a chosen class. Top 10 BRI is a good place to look if you want to see drivers who have learned to play the CC game well including car preparation, tire choice, and driving skill.
I am sort of a fan of close competition and I favor less classes rather than more. If we had just 10 CC classes with 10-15 drivers in each class, you would need to be very deliberate in choice of tire, running weight, and driving skill level to win your class. I actually think this would be pretty awesome and generate serious competition within CC classes for top dog. No I have not proposed this and I doubt it would ever happen in PCA. Too bad actually. The most fun I ever had in PCA is when there were 8-944 Spec and 2-BSX cars all well prepared and all running (CC05) within 1/2 second of each other. We ran nose to tail every session for 2 days and the Timed Runs came down to a few 10ths spread. That was motorsport bliss.
Until you have really crunched the numbers, weighed your car, carefully considered both tire compound and tire widths to optimize your car for a given class, and seriously upped your driving skills, you are simply not very competitive in motorsport. It doesn't matter which class you run because someone can always come along and beat you rather easily. Don't take my word for it though. Put Mark R. Steve G. or Adam G. in your car for a session on fresh tires and see what happens.
Any car can be a top contender in it's CC class if you are very deliberate about it's setup, tire choice, running weight, and have a keen driver at the wheel. Want to up your game? Find the most competitive class with a lot of top drivers that your car will be a good fit. Choose tires and setup carefully to optimize your car for that class and go get em. This is motorsport and when you win it will mean something. You had to beat 10 other competitive drivers to get to the top. That is a lot more fun to me than running in a personal CC class of one.
JM2C
+1 Well said and quite true. Any car that is set up and properly classed can win its class if driven well. Some classes are harder to win. That's because they have better drivers. If you're not winning your class, ask yourself the following: 1. Is my car properly set up? (aligned, balanced and good tires). 2. Am I driving my car to it's potential? 3. Is my car optimized for it's class? Of the three, the one that matters least is whether the car is optimized for it's class. A properly set up car with a skilled driver who points out at the bottom of the class can still win.
As Dave says, competition against skilled drivers is the best. I was fortunate to compete against Jackie C in our 944's for a few years and the competition was fierce. When I got the silver 911, I was lucky to compete with Steve G. In both cases, we pushed each other to be better drivers and it typically came down to who made the fewest mistakes.
I think the bottom line is to rely on superior driving to win your class, not rule changes. Have fun and keep striving to improve.
kleggo wrote:GT3 wrote:
But again, how are you suppose to learn/practice how to drive without TC/ESC if you can't turn them off to begin with?
.
I think that Steve G described this quite succinctly above and copied here.
"As I said in my post above, if someone gets signed off with the requirement of having the aides on, then later wants to have that requirement removed, all they need to do is become a student again for the purpose of learning to drive without the aides, and eventually get signed off for that once they have demonstrated their competence.
I think the concept that people are having trouble with is the incorrect idea that someone is a student only once, when they are brand new, and after they have a Solo Permit you can never be a student again.
It is quite the opposite: Everyone, no matter what they are signed off for initially can always learn something new in performance driving.
."
That person would simply go through an additional instruction phase.
Cheers
Craig
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