Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Jad on Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:23 am

I like the Nanny license proposal, but how do you learn to drive without the Nannies, without driving without the Nannies, which you are not allowed to do until you prove you can do it???
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Gary Burch on Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:33 am

nannies are the new norm
you can't fight it, it's here
the rule should be , a NN sticker on the back window...
CAUTION
NO NANNIES
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:36 pm

I think that is the best proposal of the bunch, too.
But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the nannies.
So how I read the proposal is that if a student drives without the Nannies and gets signed off for their solo permit, they can drive without them anytime they’d like.
So, if the student drives with the Nannies on and gets signed off for their Solo Permit that way, then they have to drive with them on.
Think of it like having a regular drivers license and then having a motorcycle endorsement.
Just seems to makes good safety sense.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby afilsinger on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:41 pm

Steve Grosekemper wrote:I think that is the best proposal of the bunch, too.
But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the nannies.
So how I read the proposal is that if a student drives without the Nannies and gets signed off for their solo permit, they can drive without them anytime they’d like.
So, if the student drives with the Nannies on and gets signed off for their Solo Permit that way, then they have to drive with them on.
Think of it like having a regular drivers license and then having a motorcycle endorsement.
Just seems to makes good safety sense.


How do you stop the drivers that aren't signed off to run without nannies from turning them off on track? This seems impractical and difficult to enforce.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:05 am

afilsinger wrote:
Steve Grosekemper wrote:I think that is the best proposal of the bunch, too.
But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the nannies.
So how I read the proposal is that if a student drives without the Nannies and gets signed off for their solo permit, they can drive without them anytime they’d like.
So, if the student drives with the Nannies on and gets signed off for their Solo Permit that way, then they have to drive with them on.
Think of it like having a regular drivers license and then having a motorcycle endorsement.
Just seems to makes good safety sense.


How do you stop the drivers that aren't signed off to run without nannies from turning them off on track? This seems impractical and difficult to enforce.


You mean how do you enforce those who have a solo permit for cars with electronic aids (E-Cars) from turning them off?
It will be painfully obvious when they hit the dirt or something less forgiving.
But that being said we are supposed to be obeying the rules set up for these events.
If you go renegade because you think you know better than the rules there will probably be repercussions.
(Other than the damage to your car)
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby GT3 on Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:10 am

Steve Grosekemper wrote:
afilsinger wrote:
Steve Grosekemper wrote:I think that is the best proposal of the bunch, too.
But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the nannies.
So how I read the proposal is that if a student drives without the Nannies and gets signed off for their solo permit, they can drive without them anytime they’d like.
So, if the student drives with the Nannies on and gets signed off for their Solo Permit that way, then they have to drive with them on.
Think of it like having a regular drivers license and then having a motorcycle endorsement.
Just seems to makes good safety sense.


How do you stop the drivers that aren't signed off to run without nannies from turning them off on track? This seems impractical and difficult to enforce.


You mean how do you enforce those who have a solo permit for cars with electronic aids (E-Cars) from turning them off?
It will be painfully obvious when they hit the dirt or something less forgiving.
But that being said we are supposed to be obeying the rules set up for these events.
If you go renegade because you think you know better than the rules there will probably be repercussions.
(Other than the damage to your car)


You can still go off track with your TC/ESC on, just ask any of the GT3/RS owners who have never turned them off but still drive the car hard.

Also as Jad mentioned, how is someone suppose to learn how to drive with them off (if they wish to do so) if they are not allowed to turn them off to begin with?

I thought your job was hard enough, this would just be impossible to enforce because even though most obey the rules, not everyone does.

In a couple years it wont even matter because the new cars will have adjustable TC/ESC that let you turn them down to your driving style but not off just like the Club Sport which has 12 levels of TC/ESC, or my Camaro which has 7 levels.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:49 pm

But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the driver aides.
So how I read the proposal is that if a student drives without the aides and gets signed off for their solo permit, they can drive without them anytime they’d like.
So, if the student drives with the aides on and gets signed off for their Solo Permit that way, then they have to drive with them on.
If later they want to get the second endorsement for their new permit they only have to go back out with an instructor or CDI and show they have they skillset.
Again... think of it like having a regular drivers license and then having a motorcycle endorsement.
And still it just seems to makes good safety sense.

And it makes no more work for me as I oversee the cars and equipment not the driver licensing.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby mrondeau on Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:01 pm

GT3 wrote:You can still go off track with your TC/ESC on, just ask any of the GT3/RS owners who have never turned them off but still drive the car hard.
:shock:
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Andrew Raines on Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:49 pm

Steve Grosekemper wrote:But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the driver aides


With all due respect (and reading the they in the above statement to equal student), allowing brand new students to start off in certain cars without the driver aides would make our events less safe. The instructor shouldn't have to analyze this for each student at each event and figure out if the student is on the nannie vs. non-nannie path. Who's going to volunteer to be the instructor of a brand new student with a 500HP GT without nannies? I'll bring the wheel barrel for your cojones.

If we are going to do this then we should do it correctly. Some of these proposals lack sufficient details that they should have been rejected before they showed up as proposals, regardless of whether the proposal has merit.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:23 pm

Andrew Raines wrote:
Steve Grosekemper wrote:But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the driver aides


With all due respect (and reading the they in the above statement to equal student), allowing brand new students to start off in certain cars without the driver aides would make our events less safe. The instructor shouldn't have to analyze this for each student at each event and figure out if the student is on the nannie vs. non-nannie path. Who's going to volunteer to be the instructor of a brand new student with a 500HP GT without nannies? I'll bring the wheel barrel for your cojones.

If we are going to do this then we should do it correctly. Some of these proposals lack sufficient details that they should have been rejected before they showed up as proposals, regardless of whether the proposal has merit.


I did not intend to imply that there is a current rule that brand new students need to start off with driver aides on, and that the proposed rule allows them to drive with them off, making our events less safe than they are now.
There is no such rule currently, or proposed, so both now and under the proposed rule students can drive with or without aides. That decision is made jointly between the student and instructor.
While many instructors would require them on, (me) there are definitely some who may not. It really boils down to being an individual decision. As I said in my post above, if someone gets signed off with the requirement of having the aides on, then later wants to have that requirement removed, all they need to do is become a student again for the purpose of learning to drive without the aides, and eventually get signed off for that once they have demonstrated their competence.
I think the concept that people are having trouble with is the incorrect idea that someone is a student only once, when they are brand new, and after they have a Solo Permit you can never be a student again.
It is quite the opposite: Everyone, no matter what they are signed off for initially can always learn something new in performance driving.
Again it is like passing your automobile drivers license test at 16 and then going back as a student again to get your motorcycle endorsement at 17.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby GT3 on Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:13 pm

Steve Grosekemper wrote:
Andrew Raines wrote:
Steve Grosekemper wrote:But as it is now; when someone is a student and has an instructor with them, they can drive with or without the driver aides


With all due respect (and reading the they in the above statement to equal student), allowing brand new students to start off in certain cars without the driver aides would make our events less safe. The instructor shouldn't have to analyze this for each student at each event and figure out if the student is on the nannie vs. non-nannie path. Who's going to volunteer to be the instructor of a brand new student with a 500HP GT without nannies? I'll bring the wheel barrel for your cojones.

If we are going to do this then we should do it correctly. Some of these proposals lack sufficient details that they should have been rejected before they showed up as proposals, regardless of whether the proposal has merit.


I did not intend to imply that there is a current rule that brand new students need to start off with driver aides on, and that the proposed rule allows them to drive with them off, making our events less safe than they are now.
There is no such rule currently, or proposed, so both now and under the proposed rule students can drive with or without aides. That decision is made jointly between the student and instructor.
While many instructors would require them on, (me) there are definitely some who may not. It really boils down to being an individual decision. As I said in my post above, if someone gets signed off with the requirement of having the aides on, then later wants to have that requirement removed, all they need to do is become a student again for the purpose of learning to drive without the aides, and eventually get signed off for that once they have demonstrated their competence.
I think the concept that people are having trouble with is the incorrect idea that someone is a student only once, when they are brand new, and after they have a Solo Permit you can never be a student again.
It is quite the opposite: Everyone, no matter what they are signed off for initially can always learn something new in performance driving.
Again it is like passing your automobile drivers license test at 16 and then going back as a student again to get your motorcycle endorsement at 17.


But again, how are you suppose to learn/practice how to drive without TC/ESC if you can't turn them off to begin with?

It is more like what came first, the chicken or the egg.

Here are a couple hypothetical's for you...

Brand new driver arrives in an older car with no driver aides, is he not allowed to drive the car since he must start with them?

Driver decides he wants to get signed off for driver aides so he puts on a brand new set of Hoosiers then asks for a check ride... With brand new sticky tires there will be very little correction needed so how does a CDI know for sure he can still drive the same car with no aides once the tires start to lose grip?

And as Andrew said who would want to even go on that check ride especially on 500HP+ car?

Ironically I would love for everyone to drive with all aides on simple because it would make for a safer track weekend.

I also know there are a lot of cars where those aides intervene way more than a GT car so i understand why on those cars they would want to turn them off, but it should be when they are ready to turn them off, not just to get a stamp in their log book.

Make it simple... You can't turn off any aides until you have (X) years of track experience.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Jad on Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:37 am

Other than maybe TT, I doubt anyone in the club actually knows how to turn the nannies off in all the various models and configurations. It seems to be different in every model, every year. Some turn back on sometimes, some don't. :banghead:

Back to my long held and stated position:

to have a ton of fun and go very fast, buy a 991+ Porsche,
to learn car control and become a better driver, buy an older Porsche.

The electronics are so integrated into the new cars with active diffs, engine mounts, shocks, etc, etc, etc, you can't really control the car manually, as you need these features for the car to perform optimally, but the car is constantly changing, so you can't really learn what your actions do without the car 'correcting' them.

Fixing this with rules may be a hopeless battle.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby kleggo on Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:25 am

GT3 wrote:
But again, how are you suppose to learn/practice how to drive without TC/ESC if you can't turn them off to begin with?

.


I think that Steve G described this quite succinctly above and copied here.
"As I said in my post above, if someone gets signed off with the requirement of having the aides on, then later wants to have that requirement removed, all they need to do is become a student again for the purpose of learning to drive without the aides, and eventually get signed off for that once they have demonstrated their competence.
I think the concept that people are having trouble with is the incorrect idea that someone is a student only once, when they are brand new, and after they have a Solo Permit you can never be a student again.
It is quite the opposite: Everyone, no matter what they are signed off for initially can always learn something new in performance driving.
."

That person would simply go through an additional instruction phase.

Cheers

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Dan Chambers on Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:48 am

mrondeau wrote:
Cajundaddy wrote:A little perspective on this:

One of the reasons the CC classes were developed back in 2011 was because the alphabet classes continued to expand with every new model of car until we had about 80 classes and 80-100 drivers at an event. Nearly every driver was just tooling around the course in their very own class kicking their own azz with very minimal competition except a few notable hotly contested classes. It was a fun social event but was drifting away from motorsport. The CC class system offered 16 classes that anyone could mix and match tires and equipment to be VERY competitive in a chosen class. Top 10 BRI is a good place to look if you want to see drivers who have learned to play the CC game well including car preparation, tire choice, and driving skill.

I am sort of a fan of close competition and I favor less classes rather than more. If we had just 10 CC classes with 10-15 drivers in each class, you would need to be very deliberate in choice of tire, running weight, and driving skill level to win your class. I actually think this would be pretty awesome and generate serious competition within CC classes for top dog. No I have not proposed this and I doubt it would ever happen in PCA. Too bad actually. The most fun I ever had in PCA is when there were 8-944 Spec and 2-BSX cars all well prepared and all running (CC05) within 1/2 second of each other. We ran nose to tail every session for 2 days and the Timed Runs came down to a few 10ths spread. That was motorsport bliss.

Until you have really crunched the numbers, weighed your car, carefully considered both tire compound and tire widths to optimize your car for a given class, and seriously upped your driving skills, you are simply not very competitive in motorsport. It doesn't matter which class you run because someone can always come along and beat you rather easily. Don't take my word for it though. Put Mark R. Steve G. or Adam G. in your car for a session on fresh tires and see what happens.

Any car can be a top contender in it's CC class if you are very deliberate about it's setup, tire choice, running weight, and have a keen driver at the wheel. Want to up your game? Find the most competitive class with a lot of top drivers that your car will be a good fit. Choose tires and setup carefully to optimize your car for that class and go get em. This is motorsport and when you win it will mean something. You had to beat 10 other competitive drivers to get to the top. That is a lot more fun to me than running in a personal CC class of one.

JM2C


+1 Well said and quite true. Any car that is set up and properly classed can win its class if driven well. Some classes are harder to win. That's because they have better drivers. If you're not winning your class, ask yourself the following: 1. Is my car properly set up? (aligned, balanced and good tires). 2. Am I driving my car to it's potential? 3. Is my car optimized for it's class? Of the three, the one that matters least is whether the car is optimized for it's class. A properly set up car with a skilled driver who points out at the bottom of the class can still win.

As Dave says, competition against skilled drivers is the best. I was fortunate to compete against Jackie C in our 944's for a few years and the competition was fierce. When I got the silver 911, I was lucky to compete with Steve G. In both cases, we pushed each other to be better drivers and it typically came down to who made the fewest mistakes.


I think the bottom line is to rely on superior driving to win your class, not rule changes. Have fun and keep striving to improve. :beerchug:


+1 to Dave and Mark. I really like Dave's idea of having less classes with more cares in each class, rather than more classes with less cars in those classes. It's seems like an arms race of new technology from Porsche vs. the calssification system of Zone 8 to "even out" the cars in class. Where will the arms race stop, and bettter driving skills start?

In my early days with the club there were around 16 people in my class (944's). The drivers in that class included people like Jad Duncan, Ralph Linares, John Kinkaid, Jerry Mise, Matts Lindsrohm, and many others. My first year competing ... partial year.... with my 944 that had 1 mod (new, stronger, lowering springs up front) I came in 13th in class. I went to many people asking how I could get faster; what additional mod's I needed to get closer to the front of the pack. While some recommended additional mod's, the resounding response was "spend your money on learning to drive, not changing your car." The best advice I got was "Find the top driver or drivers in your class and your car, and learn from them." So I spent the next year working closely with Jad, Ralph and John. Net result: I captured 3rd in class for the year with no additional mod's to the car. yes... 13th to 3rd in 1 year, based on great instruction (not great car improvements).

And for those RS drivers: I'm not against new technology. Quite the opposite. I'm all for new technologies that make the cars faster and safer. Watching a great driver take a newer car with great technology out on the track is absolutely awesome. Watching in-car videos of guys like Patrick Long, Jad Duncan, Mark Webber, Mark Rondeau, Steve G., Greg Phillips take newer cars out and do the dance is truly great entertainment. Great technology + great driving equals sublime performance. Their smoothness, and their times reflect this.

The only thing I fear is when the new technologies allow a poorly skilled driver to think they're a great driver... until the technologies fail. Only disaster follows. When less skilled drivers recognize they're still in need of learning, it's all good and safe. Patience, learning, practice ... and a little humility go a long way to make good drivers great.

Hope to see you all at Willow Springs. :burnout:
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby GT3 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:39 pm

kleggo wrote:
GT3 wrote:
But again, how are you suppose to learn/practice how to drive without TC/ESC if you can't turn them off to begin with?

.


I think that Steve G described this quite succinctly above and copied here.
"As I said in my post above, if someone gets signed off with the requirement of having the aides on, then later wants to have that requirement removed, all they need to do is become a student again for the purpose of learning to drive without the aides, and eventually get signed off for that once they have demonstrated their competence.
I think the concept that people are having trouble with is the incorrect idea that someone is a student only once, when they are brand new, and after they have a Solo Permit you can never be a student again.
It is quite the opposite: Everyone, no matter what they are signed off for initially can always learn something new in performance driving.
."

That person would simply go through an additional instruction phase.

Cheers

Craig


Thank you Craig... I guess I had a hard time visualizing all that comes along with needing more highly trained instructors which we are somewhat short on being we already have to turn people away, and needing huge balls to drive in a car without any aides especially on a high HP car.

As I mentioned i think it would be better to just keep it simple and have a requirement stating you can not turn them off until you have done (X) amount of events or a time period.

Also what about all the current drivers, how does one distinguish who gets a pass and who needs a check ride? CDI's will be really busy going on check rides all day.

Either way the proposal would need to be re-written and a lot more thought would need to go into it otherwise it will end up being chaos.
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