Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby GT3 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:04 pm

Jad wrote:Other than maybe TT, I doubt anyone in the club actually knows how to turn the nannies off in all the various models and configurations. It seems to be different in every model, every year. Some turn back on sometimes, some don't. :banghead:

Back to my long held and stated position:

to have a ton of fun and go very fast, buy a 991+ Porsche,
to learn car control and become a better driver, buy an older Porsche.

The electronics are so integrated into the new cars with active diffs, engine mounts, shocks, etc, etc, etc, you can't really control the car manually, as you need these features for the car to perform optimally, but the car is constantly changing, so you can't really learn what your actions do without the car 'correcting' them.

Fixing this with rules may be a hopeless battle.


You bring up a very good point... In a 991 you can NOT turn off the TC unless you turn of the ESC (Stability Control to help you in a spin out), which is so stupid since ESC is there for those oh sh*t moments, and TC is more for when the tires lose grip as you are accelerating.

In most other cars you have the option to turn either TC, or ESC off individually, or both together, but in a 991+ Porsche you have to turn off ESC to even be able to turn off TC which again does not make a lot of sense.

My Camaro on the other hand allows you multiple modes so you can start with all on and then slowly trim away to your comfort, i currently drive this car on Sport1 mode at the track which is TC completely off but ESC on.

WET: This mode is intended for any driver who is on a wet track.
DRY: This mode is for a novice driver on any track or an experienced driver learning a brand new track.
SPORT 1: This mode is for any driver who is ready to run very competitive lap times while still having stability control on in the background.
SPORT 2: This mode uses the exact same traction control settings as SPORT 1 but turns off ESC completely.
RACE: This one is pretty self-explanatory, it’s as fast as we know how to make the car go.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby cag4 on Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:11 am

Interesting discussion, and I'm not sure where I come down on the final proposal.

I understand that cars with Nannies protect the drivers (and instructors!), and clearly, based on trying to get newer cars to spin at the PDS, they have an impact on learning car control. That said, I wonder if the inverse is true: Let's say I get signed off to solo TT in my 1970RSR, 210HP, zero nannies car. So I'm licensed to drive a no-nanny car in our events. Now, the lottery hits and I show up at the next event with my 2019 GT2 pushing 600+ HP to the rear wheels... who wants to jump in with me and see if I've got enough car control to handle that thing flat out with no electronic intervention? Am I now demoted to only nannies on? Is it because the nannies exist, or because of the jump in HP... maybe its not really the nannies, but the HP/TQ we should be worrying about?

It is hard to legislate/regulate this stuff...
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Dan Chambers on Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:17 pm

cag4 wrote:Interesting discussion, and I'm not sure where I come down on the final proposal.

I understand that cars with Nannies protect the drivers (and instructors!), and clearly, based on trying to get newer cars to spin at the PDS, they have an impact on learning car control. That said, I wonder if the inverse is true: Let's say I get signed off to solo TT in my 1970RSR, 210HP, zero nannies car. So I'm licensed to drive a no-nanny car in our events. Now, the lottery hits and I show up at the next event with my 2019 GT2 pushing 600+ HP to the rear wheels... who wants to jump in with me and see if I've got enough car control to handle that thing flat out with no electronic intervention? Am I now demoted to only nannies on? Is it because the nannies exist, or because of the jump in HP... maybe its not ruestion.eally the nannies, but the HP/TQ we should be worrying about?

It is hard to legislate/regulate this stuff...


Charles, you raise a very good question.

First: I hope you DO win the lottery. :roflmao: Seriously, as an Instrucor who has been in everything from a 90-HP 912 at Streets to a 550-HP Turbo (Modified) at CFOS, I can give you a somewhat simple answer with a very complicated definition.

The simple answer is: use good judgement and know your own personal limitations well before you decide to "Release the Beast" from electronic assistance. I know that sounds simplisitic, but in reality it is the correct approach, IMHO.

As examples: Knowing your experience level in the type of car you drive, I would venture to say that you would likely decide to push the envelope of non-assist driving with care and slow methodical patience. Because you drive a Zero-Assist car now (your RS Tribute) chances are:
1) you would have a baseline knowledge of what to expect and what the car might do under extreme adhesion-limit driving.
2) you would likely build your speed, confidence, and car handling abilities slowly throuhout a day, or even weekend (or maybe even a season) with the aids off.
3)You would likely have driven the car with Driver-Assist fully on to first get to know what the car can do under a safe and reasonable situation before dialing the speeds back and turning off the assist-systems.
4) You might just re-align your status to "Student" and get a qualified Insructor to spend a session, day, or even weekend (or.... season?) to aid you in re-learning a skill at a whole new level with a car that is far more modified and advanced than what I've seen you drive.

As an Instructor at Time Trials for over 15 years, and as a former CDI (Both Qualcomm and Time Trial), and as an Instructor of the Year, I can say based on my instructing experience that these would be the most logical, safe, and prudent approaches to learning the fundementals of a high-powered, highly modified, well-sorted track/street car like a GT2, or GT3 in all their iterations and with all their advanced Driver-Assisted aids (Save the early GT2's and GT3's that only had ABS).

For the Rules Commitee, the challenges of keeping the rules square with the rapidly advancing technologies in mechanical and computer-assisted changes is daunting! Those people ... actually all of us who participate at these events included... are trying to keep the playing field as balanced and even for everyone concerned. This is not an easy task, by any means.

A perfect illustration of what it's like to "switch off the Assist" has been given by Ricardo. When he first attempted driving his car with full-assist off, his times were lower by several seconds ... SEVERAL SECONDS... per lap. He appropriately backed-off the agressive driving, parked his ego in the pits, and drove with a determined attitude of "Learn first, go fast later." I'm happy to say he's back up to speed with a whole new set of driving skills that he himself would likely tell you he was missing with Driver-Assisted technologies turned on.

These are just my thoughts and opinions, others may vary.

Looking forward to picking things up this fall. See you at the track. :burnout:
Dan Chambers
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby GT3 on Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:23 am

cag4 wrote:Interesting discussion, and I'm not sure where I come down on the final proposal.

I understand that cars with Nannies protect the drivers (and instructors!), and clearly, based on trying to get newer cars to spin at the PDS, they have an impact on learning car control. That said, I wonder if the inverse is true: Let's say I get signed off to solo TT in my 1970RSR, 210HP, zero nannies car. So I'm licensed to drive a no-nanny car in our events. Now, the lottery hits and I show up at the next event with my 2019 GT2 pushing 600+ HP to the rear wheels... who wants to jump in with me and see if I've got enough car control to handle that thing flat out with no electronic intervention? Am I now demoted to only nannies on? Is it because the nannies exist, or because of the jump in HP... maybe its not really the nannies, but the HP/TQ we should be worrying about?

It is hard to legislate/regulate this stuff...


If you did show up in a GT2 which would be awesome, you would never turn off the TC/ESC for one simple reason, the value of the car is to high no matter how much money you have.

Also on a car like that you will find very quickly that there is no need to turn them off simple because of the advancements of the computers.

The truth is this doesn't even apply to anyone driving a 991+ GT3/RS car because I don't think anyone can even name one person who drives their GT3/RS car on the big tracks with any of these safety features off, this really more applies to someone who is in an older car where the TC/ESC actually does slow you down.

And you're right, who gets a pass, who doesn't, if you change cars do you need to start over as a student again when we don't have enough instructors to already go around?

Sound like chaos to me when you can just make it simple by applying a certain amount of events and or time period restriction before a driver is allowed to turn these safety features off.

As of right now it would be 8 events roughly depending on previous experience since most instructors won't let you turn them off to begin with and it takes 8 events to get signed off as a solo driver in our club.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Batman on Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:34 pm

Ok now that the dead line has passed.

I would like to throw something on the table for thought through to the next set of rules change.

5 maybe 7 classes all based on a Dyno sheet and a scale. I think the drivers who will up will have good competition and some fun races too.

This could be easy to tech inspect and verify weight. Wire seal the Dyno info on the engine and a scale at all Time Trials to check drivers weight at impound. If you place on the podium you must pass the min. scale weight.

Keep this simple and fun. My past two rears running with SVRA has taught me the real race is behind you. No better opportunity to follow someone learn how to set the pass knowing you car can pull away at anythime. Learn how the driver in front is changing his style base on your actions directly behind in his or her.

7 weight to Dyno car classes, each group would have about a 10 second gap between the fastest in the class and the slowest.

We all know tires are usually 2seconds faster per lap. Add the 8 second difference and that could be a fun race.

Stop trying to go into the nanny conversation just stay in the power to weight create a all new TT classs maybe not PCANA DE classes but instead PCASDR TT classes using the DYNO and Weight formula..

OK just my thoughts.


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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Dan Chambers on Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:47 pm

Batman wrote:Ok now that the dead line has passed.

I would like to throw something on the table for thought through to the next set of rules change.

5 maybe 7 classes all based on a Dyno sheet and a scale. I think the drivers who will up will have good competition and some fun races too.

This could be easy to tech inspect and verify weight. Wire seal the Dyno info on the engine and a scale at all Time Trials to check drivers weight at impound. If you place on the podium you must pass the min. scale weight.

Keep this simple and fun. My past two rears running with SVRA has taught me the real race is behind you. No better opportunity to follow someone learn how to set the pass knowing you car can pull away at anythime. Learn how the driver in front is changing his style base on your actions directly behind in his or her.

7 weight to Dyno car classes, each group would have about a 10 second gap between the fastest in the class and the slowest.

We all know tires are usually 2seconds faster per lap. Add the 8 second difference and that could be a fun race.

Stop trying to go into the nanny conversation just stay in the power to weight create a all new TT classs maybe not PCANA DE classes but instead PCASDR TT classes using the DYNO and Weight formula..

OK just my thoughts.


Bruce Wing


Interesting concept, Bruce. While HP/Wt ratios are one way of determining class, this more simplistic approach leaves out one critical factor in Non-Drag Racing motorsports; that factor is... "The Speed is in the Corners."

First of all, most of the "points" for upgrades relate to how much contact patch a car has, how sticky the contact patch is, and through variations on hardware how much contact remains between the tires and the surface during high lateral G's, and whether that contact patch is compromised by too much torque on acceleration or too much stress when braking. Augmented suspension components? Aids contact patch. Weight loss? Aids contact patch via better weight to lateral G stresses and augments acceleration/braking. Bigger tires? Aids contact patch. Stickier tires? Aids contact patch. Widening flares and wider suspension track for wider tires? Aids contact patch. With the exception of weight loss and it's benefits to accelerating/braking all these changes for points enhance cornering speed. Why? Because ... the speed is in the corners.

So who cares about speed in the corners? Everyone should. One of the biggest reasons is because there is less linear distance that is straight at our tracks than there is linear distance consumed by corners. WSIR and Fontana have HUGE, SWEEPING corners that allow for more speed...but they're corners none the less. So cornering speed is important beacuse... The Speed is in the Corners at our TT and AX events.

The power-to-weight ratio principles would work for initial deliniation of run groups, true. However as soon as you add in the available upgrades for improved contact patch and corner speed, the HP/WT ratios kinda get thrown out the window. Example: A 993 Twin Turbo with stock suspension and 200+ rated standard sized street tires would be eaten alive by a 1979 180 HP 911SC with all the proper suspension upgrades and Hoosiers. :banghead: At some place like Chuckwalla or Buttonwillow, the 993 would be a back-marker to cars in lesser classes (based on HP/WT ratios) that have a full compliment of contact patch upgrades. How fun would that be for the 993 driver? :oops:

As to the rules changes and the phylosophical debate about Electronic Driver's Aids; most, if not all the traditional hardware upgrades are given points for improved contact patch results. With electronic aids, few or nearly none of those contact patch enhancement tools are given points even though they work better than traditional hardware upgrades in many cases. And... therein lies the debate.

These are just my opinions. Other opinions will differ.
Dan Chambers
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby dcarusillo on Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:27 pm

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Dan Chambers on Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:05 am

dcarusillo wrote:https://youtu.be/EN6Kiex0SlE



OK.... "The Speed is in the Corners" AND... you have to drive like a madman!! :shock:  :bowdown:
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Cajundaddy on Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:16 pm

dcarusillo wrote:https://youtu.be/EN6Kiex0SlE


That's the way you do it! :beerchug:
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby dcarusillo on Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:53 pm

Thanks Gents. Figured I'd interrupt our regularly scheduled banter and interject some driving :beerchug:
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Cuda911 on Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:03 pm

GT3 wrote:Lets all remember we are not doing this for the prize money and just want to go out and have fun and make friends because at the end of the day that what this is all about, along with going home to your family in one piece.

Thank you for your time and consideration,
Alain Stad



Wait... what???? We aren't doing this for the prize money??? Crap, I have been misguided and misled.

Also, the "N" rule seems totally silly to me. What does it accomplish??

EDIT: Ah, just checked, it was rejected. Thank goodness for that! Now, back to that prize money issue....
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby cag4 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:10 pm

Is there someplace that the results of the rules proposals have been posted? Curious...
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby Cajundaddy on Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:33 pm

cag4 wrote:Is there someplace that the results of the rules proposals have been posted? Curious...


Updates are always posted to the rules page. Proposals have been sifted and sorted. Now on to the 2nd round of comments before they go out to a vote by region presidents in November.
http://www.zone8.org/events/rules/proposed.php
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2019

Postby rshon on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:11 pm

Final call for comments on the latest round of Rules Proposals for 2019: http://www.zone8.org/assets/docs/2019/RuleProposals2019R208-16-18.pdf

We will be accepting comments up to next Wednesday, October 31. Please send all comments on these proposals to ruleproposals@zone8.org .
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