Taking points - PCCB brakes

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Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby kleggo on Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:59 pm

The car classing site has this item

Non-stock Brakes (other than drilled/slotted rotors, brake pads or master cylinder or aftermarket rotors with no increase in diameter.)
Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes. (20 pts).


Does this mean if car maintains factory PCCB brake rotors = 20 points? answer seems to be yes.

Does this mean if car was delivered with PCCB brake rotors, but is running "irons" of same diameter as factory = 0 points? answer seems to be not defined.

Thank you.

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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby GT3 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:40 am

kleggo wrote:The car classing site has this item

Non-stock Brakes (other than drilled/slotted rotors, brake pads or master cylinder or aftermarket rotors with no increase in diameter.)
Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes. (20 pts).


Does this mean if car maintains factory PCCB brake rotors = 20 points? answer seems to be yes.

Does this mean if car was delivered with PCCB brake rotors, but is running "irons" of same diameter as factory = 0 points? answer seems to be not defined.

Thank you.

Craig


I believe the key point is where it states "Non-stock Brakes" if they are stock "Iron" or PCCB you don't take the points, if they are aftermarket"Iron" that are increased in diameter, or if you added PCCB from stock "Iron" than you do.
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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby JayG on Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:30 pm

GT3 wrote:
kleggo wrote:The car classing site has this item

Non-stock Brakes (other than drilled/slotted rotors, brake pads or master cylinder or aftermarket rotors with no increase in diameter.)
Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes. (20 pts).


Does this mean if car maintains factory PCCB brake rotors = 20 points? answer seems to be yes.

Does this mean if car was delivered with PCCB brake rotors, but is running "irons" of same diameter as factory = 0 points? answer seems to be not defined.

Thank you.

Craig


I believe the key point is where it states "Non-stock Brakes" if they are stock "Iron" or PCCB you don't take the points, if they are aftermarket"Iron" that are increased in diameter, or if you added PCCB from stock "Iron" than you do.


I read it as 20 pts for PCCB no matter of they come from the factory or are added later.
I would think if you replace the PCCB with factory size iron then it would be 0 pts

Russell or Steve ???
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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby GT3 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:07 pm

JayG wrote:
GT3 wrote:
kleggo wrote:The car classing site has this item

Non-stock Brakes (other than drilled/slotted rotors, brake pads or master cylinder or aftermarket rotors with no increase in diameter.)
Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes. (20 pts).


Does this mean if car maintains factory PCCB brake rotors = 20 points? answer seems to be yes.

Does this mean if car was delivered with PCCB brake rotors, but is running "irons" of same diameter as factory = 0 points? answer seems to be not defined.

Thank you.

Craig


I believe the key point is where it states "Non-stock Brakes" if they are stock "Iron" or PCCB you don't take the points, if they are aftermarket"Iron" that are increased in diameter, or if you added PCCB from stock "Iron" than you do.


I read it as 20 pts for PCCB no matter of they come from the factory or are added later.
I would think if you replace the PCCB with factory size iron then it would be 0 pts

Russell or Steve ???


Again it starts of stating "Non Stock Brakes" doesn't matter if they are PCCB or Steel, if they are stock from the factory i.e. you bought the car like that then you don't take the points.

Cars like the GT3 or RS that come with these rotors already have to take extra pts above 60 or 80 for being a GT3/RS.

I think where the confusion comes in is where it states "Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes.", if you purchased "factory" Porsche PCCB rotors and added them after than you would have to take the pts, but if they came with the car when purchased they are still considered "Stock Brakes" and you do not have to take the pts.

FYI if for some reason I am wrong, than every single GT3/RS is spec incorrectly which I highly doubt.
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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby rshon on Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:58 pm

GT3 wrote:
Again it starts of stating "Non Stock Brakes" doesn't matter if they are PCCB or Steel, if they are stock from the factory i.e. you bought the car like that then you don't take the points.

Cars like the GT3 or RS that come with these rotors already have to take extra pts above 60 or 80 for being a GT3/RS.

I think where the confusion comes in is where it states "Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes.", if you purchased "factory" Porsche PCCB rotors and added them after than you would have to take the pts, but if they came with the car when purchased they are still considered "Stock Brakes" and you do not have to take the pts.

FYI if for some reason I am wrong, than every single GT3/RS is spec incorrectly which I highly doubt.


The above opinion is INCORRECT. Not all GT3's or Turbos came with PCCB brakes, so ANY car that has PCCB brakes, whether from the factory or installed afterwards, must take the 20 points. The package points assessments NEVER included a factor for PCCB. As far as swapping in iron discs in a car originally equipped with PCCB, so long as the rest of the brakes (calipers, rotor dimensions) are the same as the non-PCCB brakes for that model, you should be able to claim 0 points for brakes (but you also have to convince Steve during tech...)

The Rules are supposed to be the same for everybody, whether your car came stock with PCCB, or they didn't. There are no "free factory go-fast items". If you have advantageous brakes (over the iron-based baseline), you have to take the points for it...
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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby GT3 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:22 pm

rshon wrote:
GT3 wrote:
Again it starts of stating "Non Stock Brakes" doesn't matter if they are PCCB or Steel, if they are stock from the factory i.e. you bought the car like that then you don't take the points.

Cars like the GT3 or RS that come with these rotors already have to take extra pts above 60 or 80 for being a GT3/RS.

I think where the confusion comes in is where it states "Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes.", if you purchased "factory" Porsche PCCB rotors and added them after than you would have to take the pts, but if they came with the car when purchased they are still considered "Stock Brakes" and you do not have to take the pts.

FYI if for some reason I am wrong, than every single GT3/RS is spec incorrectly which I highly doubt.


The above opinion is INCORRECT. Not all GT3's or Turbos came with PCCB brakes, so ANY car that has PCCB brakes, whether from the factory or installed afterwards, must take the 20 points. The package points assessments NEVER included a factor for PCCB. As far as swapping in iron discs in a car originally equipped with PCCB, so long as the rest of the brakes (calipers, rotor dimensions) are the same as the non-PCCB brakes for that model, you should be able to claim 0 points for brakes (but you also have to convince Steve during tech...)

The Rules are supposed to be the same for everybody, whether your car came stock with PCCB, or they didn't. There are no "free factory go-fast items". If you have advantageous brakes (over the iron-based baseline), you have to take the points for it...


First off I never stated GT3 or RS ALL came with PCCBs, nor even mentioned anything about Turbos.

Secondly why start the rule with "Non Stock Brakes", because that only makes things even more confusing if the car came with PCCB's that is considered stock brakes not "Non stock brakes".

Thirdly being a former driver of an RS with PCCB's i can state that every single GT3 or RS that came to the track with PCCB's did not take points for this so I find it ironic this is only coming up now 2 years later and no one has even mention this at any tech inspection ever!

Other than less dust and longer life span along with higher maintenance cost there is not much of a real advantage in actual braking from steel to PCCB's unless we did endurance races maybe, which is why many people who track these cars actually spec the car with steel over the PCCB's.

As far as having to take the extra 60 or 80 points for GT3 or RS it states... "Cars equipped with a 997.2/991 GT2RS or GT3RS performance package (to a 997.2 or 991 respectively)
(springs, struts/shocks, sway bars, brakes, aero, gearing) in its entirety with original factory parts (at the factory or after the fact). (80 pts)"

"BRAKES" is already stated in there so you want those people to take an extra 20 pts on top of this?? This is what I was referring to.

Now lets say you buy a Boxster Spyder and add PCCB as an option and do not take any of the "Performance Packages" point than I could see where you would need to take the points for PCCB, I don't actually think what you are saying Russell is correct or at least not explaining it correctly.

I am sure Steve will come in at some point and put this to rest.
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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby rshon on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:55 am

Your arguments are specious. For the benefit of the OP, you emailed Steve, and he has told you that the guidance from the person (who has been the Zone 8 Rules Chair for the last 7 years) is correct. Didn't see you post a correction.

Please refrain from giving rules advice when you are not sure you understand them correctly.
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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby JayG on Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:28 pm

One thing to remember is that our system is self-policing unless someone files a challenge.

It's the honor system and chances are if someone isn't taking the points for a performance option or such, its probably because they are unaware of the correct rule and how it should be applied.

Considering the vast sum of money you can win at our events, I don't think there are a lot of cheaters consciously not taking points and mis-classifying their car just so they can be a little faster.

If in doubt, its easy to ask a question of the scrutineer or rules chair and get clarification
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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby GT3 on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:15 pm

rshon wrote:Your arguments are specious. For the benefit of the OP, you emailed Steve, and he has told you that the guidance from the person (who has been the Zone 8 Rules Chair for the last 7 years) is correct. Didn't see you post a correction.

Please refrain from giving rules advice when you are not sure you understand them correctly.


Yes Russell, I did talk with Steve and he said we were both right, you were right about the rule, and I was right that no one has ever taken points for this, but he also mention this was a "Staff Added Rule" which NO ONE is aware of.

The reason I did not respond is because I was taking a step back as I mentioned earlier to let either Steve or Tom come in and make their statement which I thought would be more class than to try and start a duel with you on a public forum.

I do find it a bit immature you couldn't come up to me tonight at the awards dinner and talk to me like a civilized person but rather come on here and try to put me on blast & talk down to me.

We do not live in Nazi Germany, so if I want to give my advice or opinion on a public forum, I am allowed to do so!

I drove a car with PCCBs for over 2+ years so I felt I had some experience in the original question.

I also did talk with Tom Brown tonight and asked him in reference to this thread and he originally said "you were correct", but when I asked him about the Performance Package Points he than said you do not have to take the points for the PCCB if I understood him correctly, and I was not the only one who got that impression.

The bigger problem which you are not seeing is, if I am incorrect, which is possible, than it will effect certain people who will be forced into the next class and not being able to transfer their points into the new class which will end up effecting their standings at the end of the year.

Good luck telling Angela Avitt that, I wouldn't want to be the one that has to tell her that because I am a pussy cat compared to what she will do to that person :roflmao:

Please show us where in the rules it states if you take the Performance Package Points that you must also add for Non stock brakes?
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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby Greg Phillips on Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:48 pm

kleggo wrote:The car classing site has this item

Non-stock Brakes (other than drilled/slotted rotors, brake pads or master cylinder or aftermarket rotors with no increase in diameter.)
Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes. (20 pts).


Does this mean if car maintains factory PCCB brake rotors = 20 points? answer seems to be yes.

Does this mean if car was delivered with PCCB brake rotors, but is running "irons" of same diameter as factory = 0 points? answer seems to be not defined.

Thank you.

Craig

It probably would have been clearer to have called it:
Brake Upgrades (other than drilled/slotted rotors, brake pads or master cylinder or aftermarket rotors with no increase in diameter.)
Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes. (20 pts)

But it clearly includes all ceramic brakes. The advantage is not so much the braking performance but the decrease in un-sprung weight which will enhance the handling and acceleration.

It looks like anyone with PCCB needs to review their car classification and include the 20 points under brakes.

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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby GT3 on Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:15 am

Greg Phillips wrote:
kleggo wrote:The car classing site has this item

Non-stock Brakes (other than drilled/slotted rotors, brake pads or master cylinder or aftermarket rotors with no increase in diameter.)
Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes. (20 pts).


Does this mean if car maintains factory PCCB brake rotors = 20 points? answer seems to be yes.

Does this mean if car was delivered with PCCB brake rotors, but is running "irons" of same diameter as factory = 0 points? answer seems to be not defined.

Thank you.

Craig

It probably would have been clearer to have called it:
Brake Upgrades (other than drilled/slotted rotors, brake pads or master cylinder or aftermarket rotors with no increase in diameter.)
Includes factory or post-delivery installation of Ceramic Brakes. (20 pts)

But it clearly includes all ceramic brakes. The advantage is not so much the braking performance but the decrease in un-sprung weight which will enhance the handling and acceleration.

It looks like anyone with PCCB needs to review their car classification and include the 20 points under brakes.

Greg
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Honestly Greg I think it should be it's own checkbox under brakes to avoid any confusion i.e. Ceramic Brakes/PCCB (20 pts).

You do bring up a very good point about the un-sprung weight, but 20pts seems a bit extreme for this small advantage IMO.

I now understand what Steve was saying when he said this was a "Staff Added Rule" because I do not think there was ever a proposal to add 20pts for ceramic brakes and why this has been so confusing to many people.

Also what is the point of performance package points than since you are already taking points for brakes, isn't that the whole concept of taking those 60 or 80 pts is that you get a discount on the pts?

Lastly the explanation for performance package points for an RS is:

997.2/991 GT2RS or GT3RS performance package
Cars equipped with a 997.2/991 GT2RS or GT3RS performance package (to a 997.2 or 991 respectively). If any of the suspension/brake/aero/transmission components [sway bars, springs, shocks, brakes, splitters/wing/body components, transmission components] are replaced with points-assessed parts, the performance package points assessment may not be taken, and separate a la carte points for any upgrades over the base model must be taken.

According to this, if you take points for "non stock brakes" than would have to take out the performance package points and pick each thing individually if I am reading this correctly.

We might be opening a big can of worms here...
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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby tb911 on Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:41 pm

Ok, OK
The team has been discussing this at length now to understand: What is written, what is intended, what has been practice and what needs clarification.

As always, there is good news and there is bad news.

First the bad news: If you have ceramic brakes, you need to take 20 points. This is because, to our knowledge, ceramic brakes are always an option, have never been considered the base-level brake for any model. Think of sunroofs -- which are technically an option even though 90% of new 911s just come with one.

Doesn't matter if you are taking the discount package points or not. The discount packages were written with the steel brakes in mind, as those cars come with upgraded steel brakes (if you don't get ceramic). So, yes, ceramic brakes are an upgrade for them as well.

This is already covered in Item #12 of the Rules Clarification document, see here: http://www.zone8.org/events/rules/current.php

Now for the good news: You CAN take the package points if you have ceramic brakes. While, as it was pointed out above, it sounds like ceramic brakes may invalidate the use of the discount packages altogether, that is not the intention. You may combine the discount package points with brake points, if that makes sense for your car.

This discussion has certainly pointed out the need for better wording and clarification and we will undertake that for future revisions of the documents.

As always, if you feel things can be better, please submit a rules change proposal. The process is straightforward: Describe the problem, indicate the rule (or lack thereof) that is the source of the problem, give a proposed rule change, and a rationale as to how the change fixes the problem. Please send to me at: ruleproposals@zone8.org
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Re: Taking points - PCCB brakes

Postby kleggo on Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:27 am

Thanks for the discussion guys.
I appreciate it, (and the Zone 8 email that Steve G sent).

See what happens when a fastidious engineer actually reads the rules?

It seemed clear to me that the rule's intent was to add 20 to cars that utilize PCCB's.

Seems like replacing the PCCBs with irons for tracks days makes sense for reasons other than just saving money.

Cheers

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