Zone 8 Rule Changes

[David J Marguglio]

Now lets go to Fontana with these two cars and I drive the Turbo look coupe and you drive the stock C-2. Both cars factory stock zero point cars.

Steve, is this really an issue?

As long as we see fit to splice hairs, will those "base" cars with higher weight (i.e. cab tops, massaging seats, GPS, etc.) get to subtract points? It seems only fair, I mean if you put Jad's kid in a 964 cab and Steve's kid in a base 964, it seems only reasonable that the kid in the cab would get more sun, but would ulitimately be slower. Let's hear from Rick on this one.

Come on gentlemen, is this really worthy of a rules change? If so, I have a few proposals that involve lightweight lug nuts and carbon/kevlar muffler bearings.

[Steve Grosekemper]

David,
Is this really an issue?
There has been bickering over where RSA's and turbo look cars belong and how they should be classed for years. Trust me, I am the one who gets all the e-mails and phone calls. Aren't you advocating the line of thought that 12.3 people must die at a intersection before we put in a signal (Extreme exageration-Yes)

If it makes sense, make the change. Rules are always being updated and modified. It is part of the process. As far as your weight rule, that is very interesting. POC has a very similar rule for there upper classes. Why don't you sit down and write a proposal and send it in.

[Jad]

Oh sure, I take all the weight out of my car, and NOW someone suggest getting negative points for being over weight. With all the weight, I could probably have run in CSS (I would have gone lower, but the offensive class would have been edited out??) I probably could beat TT in the BRI then! I tell you there is a cospiracy against 944's!!!!

Steve, drop me an E-mail as soon as everyone is happy with the rules. I will sit patiently waiting

[David J Marguglio]

Well Steve, you asked for it!

Here is my rule proposal to make things a bit more “fair”. (I say this with an inflection on the word “fair” while simultaneously patting my belly.)


Proposal #19: (Weight formula)
Autocross A-2006/001 Comments
Change-
Apply “on track weight” when determining points to be taken or subtracted from the base points of the class.

The official “On Track Weight” of a vehicle will be calculated based on the following formula: PCA Factory Vehicle Weight (see Appendix II) +/- Resulting Driver’s Weight (see Appendix I) = PCA On Track Weight.

On track weight will take or subtract points based on the following table:

Under Weight
0 – 50 lbs = +0 pts.
51 – 150 = +4
151 – 250 = +8
251 – 350 = +12

Over Weight
0 – 50 = -0 pts.
51 – 150 = -4
151 - 250 = -8
251 - 350 = -12


Rationale -
Few point adjusted modifications have as profound an impact to the overall performance of the car as weight. Since we already assess points for the removal of weight, we should, in the interest of fairness, subtract points from cars and drivers that are over the baseline weight.

APPENDIX I – DRIVER’S WEIGHT

Drivers weight is assumed to be a base line of 180 lbs. If the driver weighs 180 lbs, the Resulting Driver’s Weight (“RDW”) will be zero. If the driver weighs less than the base weight, the RDW will be negative is subtracted from the PCA factory vehicle weight; conversely, if the driver’s weight is greater than the RDW, the result will be added to the vehicle weight.

APPENDIX II -- PCA FACTORY VEHICLE WEIGHTS

356
1950-55 356 Coupe 1830
Cabriolet, Speedster 1675
1956-58 356A Coupe 1870
Cabriolet, Speedster 1675
Carrera 2050
GT Carrera 1918
1959-63 356B Coupe & S-90 1980
Roadster 1918
GT Carrera 1863
1963-65 356C Coupe & 356SC 2035

911
1965-66 911 2271
1968 911T & L 2381
1967-68 911S 2271
1969-71 911T, E & S 2249
1972-73 911T 2315
1972-73 911E, S 2370
1973 2.7 Carrera RS RoW 2370
1974 3.0 Carrera RS RoW 2513
1974-75 2.7 Carrera S/C USA 2425
1974-75 911, 911S 2370
1974-75 Carrera RoW 2370
1975-77 911 Turbo 2635
1976-77 911, 911S (2.7) 2469
1976-77 911 3.0 Carrera RoW 2513
1976-77 911 Turbo 3.0 (RoW) 2635
1978-83 911SC 2756
1980 911SC RoW 2557
1981-83 911SC RoW 2601
1978-79 911 Turbo 2855
1980-83 911 Turbo RoW 2865
1984-89 911 Carrera 2756
1988-89 911 CarreraClubSport 2656
1984-89 911 Turbo Look 2866
1986-89 911 Turbo 2943
1989-94 911C4 3197
1990-94 911C2 3031
1991-92 911 Turbo (3.3) 3274
1994 911 Turbo (3.6) 3274
1992-93 American Roadster 3252
1991-92 911 RS (RoW) 2712
1993-94 911 RS America 2954
1995-98 993 3064
1995-98 C4 3130
1996-98 Turbo 3307
1999-01 996 2910
2001-04 Turbo 3395
2002-04 996 2966
2005 997 3075
2005 911 Carrera S 3131
2005 911 Turbo & Turbo S 3505

912
1965-69 912 2138
1976 912E 2258

914
1970-76 914-4 2139
1970-72 914-6 2174
1972 916 2200

924
1977-82 924 2623
1986-88 924S 2734

928
1978-82 928 3351
1980-86 928S 3351
1987-91 928S4 3505
1989-91 928GT 3505
1993-95 928GTS 3595

944
1983-87 944 (2.5) 2778
1988 944 (2.5) 2844
1989 944 (2.7) 2866
1987-88 944S (2.7) 2822
1989-91 944S2 (3.0) 2998
1986-88 944 Turbo (2.5) 2899
1990-91 944S2 Cabriolet 3109
1988-89 944Turbo, 944TurboS 2998

968
1992-94 968 (3.0) 3086
1992-94 968 Cabriolet 3240 3095

986 Boxster
1996-99 Boxster (2.5) 2756
2000-02 Boxster (2.7) 2778
2003-04 Boxster (2.7) 2811
2005 Boxster (2.7) 2855
2000-02 Boxster S 2855
2003-04 Boxster S 2910
2005 Boxster S 2965

* All weights based on stock factory DIN weight specifications with full factory installed fuel tank,
spare tire and complete tool kit.

[Steve Grosekemper]

No I didn't!
I never I wanted to see your proposal posted here from you or ANYONE else!

This is not the place for it and it will never see the process if posted here!

I wrote
"Why don't you sit down and write a proposal and send it in"

If you really want to be part of the process of rules change then go though the correct channels and post it to the Zone 8 website
where someone has gone to an enormous amount of work to make it easy for you to do so.

BTW- good to see you have your cut & paste skills down.

[martinreinhardt]

Una domanda: What is the curb weight for a humans?

Keep in mind that 55% of americans are overweight and this rules wouldn't really help me (can't gain 10 pounds if I tried). This can get complicated to get driver and cars passing tech

Now we need to involve a medicine man to give us the formula to calculate a normal avg human weight.

[David J Marguglio]

First of Steve, I did submit it through the "correct channels"; in fact, I sent an email through the Zone 8 website to Mr. Price just you said. Additionally, I posted it to this thread, since I began this thread, and it seemed germane to the topic. As for my "cut & paste skills," it is true I did lift the gross vehicle weight numbers from the POC rules, but they are from Porsche and I see no reason to reinvent the wheel.

[pyro57]

Wow,

I've heard of affirmative action, but I really like this affirmative racing program that PCASDR is taking on, the more pasta I eat the more points get taken away for my drivers curb weight. This is a great idea and I really feel that we should adopt some sort of policy for people like me that are gravitationally challenged. Anyone up for a pizza party the night before weigh in?

[ttweed]

Oh sure, I take all the weight out of my car, and NOW someone suggest getting negative points for being over weight.

No Jad, I suggested it last year, but it was not accepted. This was the proposal I made:


Current Rule:
III. R. Removal of weight, below the base car curb weight as stated in the owners manual, per 100 pounds (0-99 lbs. = 0, 100-199 lbs = 4, etc.)

Change:
III. R. Removal of weight, below the base car Curb Weight, as stated in the owners manual, is treated as follows (Curb weight is defined as including a full factory fuel tank and all fluids, plus the spare tire, if supplied from the factory, and complete factory tool kit):

The first 145 lbs. weight reduction shall be free of any points. This will be defined as the allowed "Competition Weight" for the vehicle, as distinct from the Curb Weight. This is to allow for removal of the spare tire and tool kit, and installation of suitable seats, wheels and tires for competition. Thereafter, 1 points shall be assessed for each 25 lbs. of weight reduction below the allowed Competition Weight (e.g., a reduction of 245 lbs. from Curb Weight will be assessed 4 points: 0 for the first 145 and 4 for the second 100 lbs.)

In the Improved, Modified and Race classes, a 1 point credit, or decrease in the points modification total for the car, will be allowed for every 35 lbs. over the allowed Competition Weight, up to a maximum of a 6 point deduction. This is to allow for the installation of roll cages, fire systems, and other safety equipment (which is encouraged and even mandated in the higher classes) without stripping the car in other areas to compensate for the additional weight.

Rationale:
Some of the reasons for changing this rule are contained in the body of the rule itself, i.e., the provisions for removing spare tire and toolkit, installing safety and performance equipment, etc. However, the main thrust of this change is to bring the PCA Zone 8 rules into harmony with the current POC GCRs. Many Zone 8 members also compete with their cars in POC events. The rule sets are very different in many ways, but with these minor changes to our rules, we could at least allow members to prepare their cars according to the same weight criteria to be competitive in both venues.


I intend to submit a revised version again, excluding Street Stock and Stock classes by saying that they must run at curb weight or higher, as I believe this more closely matches the POC rules and the desire to not have "stripped" cars in the stock categories, which seems to be the intent of the current PCA rules committee, based on the revisions that were accepted last year.

TT

[RickK]

As long as we see fit to splice hairs, will those "base" cars with higher weight (i.e. cab tops, massaging seats, GPS, etc.) get to subtract points? It seems only fair, I mean if you put Jad's kid in a 964 cab and Steve's kid in a base 964, it seems only reasonable that the kid in the cab would get more sun, but would ulitimately be slower. Let's hear from Rick on this one.

Are you saying the lower center of gravity from the lightweight top doesn't make up for the weight penalty?
Seriously, I would be in favor of setting the base weight of a model for a class at the weight of the heaviest variation offered. Would this be a C4 Cab, maybe?

[Jad]

As long as we see fit to splice hairs, will those "base" cars with higher weight (i.e. cab tops, massaging seats, GPS, etc.) get to subtract points? It seems only fair, I mean if you put Jad's kid in a 964 cab and Steve's kid in a base 964, it seems only reasonable that the kid in the cab would get more sun, but would ulitimately be slower. Let's hear from Rick on this one.

Are you saying the lower center of gravity from the lightweight top doesn't make up for the weight penalty?
Seriously, I would be in favor of setting the base weight of a model for a class at the weight of the heaviest variation offered. Would this be a C4 Cab, maybe?

I don't think the heaviest could be base weight. As approximates, the cab adds 150 lbs, the C4 about 100 lbs, a tip would be another 120 lbs, and maybe 100 lbs in stereo, pwr seats etc and you are 470 lbs above base, which is 20 points or so in weight reduction on a RSA.

I think you start with the base car, like a C2 coupe factory weight and add or subtract from that weight. RSA's take a few points, C4 Cab tips lose points. I think this should especially apply to SS class, with the caviets already listed in SS of no race tires etc. I also tend to think the weight should be when the car crosses the finish line, not with a full tank of gas that no one competes with. To allow for gas, spare and floor mat removal, 100 lbs under stock weight seems about right.

PS, Sorry TT, forgot you did mention the weight thing last year, but of course, there is still a conspiracy

[gulf911]

Tom, While I agree to a point, in the Improved and modified classes because the Roll bar etc is mandatory everybody should be in the same boat with regard to any additional weight. Who out there in improved or Modified doesn't remove weight?? I don't beleive there should be points subtracted for more weight. Using the curb weight as a baseline and adding points is fair. If you are over 180 eat a salad... (please dont write in to the editor, I am kidding) If an RSA is significantly lighter, has a wider track or wheels than a 964 base model, factory or not, you should take additonal points for that IMHO... Thats like saying I am not taking any points for my RSR in a 911S class because its a base model of the 911 and was done by the factory. Well not exactly, but you get my point...

[gulf911]

Ive been know to kill threads in the past but this is rediculous...

[Kim Crosser]

We're all still smarting from that "salad" remark.

[gulf911]

oh brother... What part of I am kidding didn't you get??

FYI: I'm over 180...