PCA SDR

Posted: **Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:23 am**

Trying to figure out how to read this and how to measure it. It's from the tech ref sheet.

5. Body Modifications
R. Removal of weight, per 100 pounds (0-50lbs = 0-pts, 51-150lbs = 4-pts, 151-250 = 8-pts, etc.)

I have pulled my AC, spare tire and a few little things, how do I measure my weight loss? Is a guesstimate ok, or do I need to weigh my car?

Do the directions mean that someone who loses 51lbs and one who loses 150lbs both get the same points? If it's "per 100lbs" why do the points start at 50lbs?

I'm not worried about competition, just fun, and either JSS or JS class for my 87, I just don't want to irk anyone by being in the wrong class. I'm equally prepared to lose in either class. :lol:

Posted: **Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:46 am**

sushinav wrote:Trying to figure out how to read this and how to measure it. It's from the tech ref sheet.

5. Body Modifications
R. Removal of weight, per 100 pounds (0-50lbs = 0-pts, 51-150lbs = 4-pts, 151-250 = 8-pts, etc.)

I have pulled my AC, spare tire and a few little things, how do I measure my weight loss? Is a guesstimate ok, or do I need to weigh my car?

Ideally, weigh the car. With the '87 911, you can usually remove
a bunch, and still be okay. Of course, YMMV, and if you do well,
others will wonder...

I removed AC, interior stuff, muffler, driver's seat (Recaro instead),
and I'm still 40 lbs OVER curb weight. I still have power windows,
radio, heater white sidewall tires, etc. on my '79 911.

Do the directions mean that someone who loses 51lbs and one who loses 150lbs both get the same points?

Yes.

If it's "per 100lbs" why do the points start at 50lbs?

Consider it rounding or a grace zone.

I'm not worried about competition, just fun, and either JSS or JS class for my 87, I just don't want to irk anyone by being in the wrong class. I'm equally prepared to lose in either class.

Posted: **Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:01 am**

The fifty pounds in theory allows you to remove the spare, tools, mats and misc loose items while maintaining a 'stock' car. However, the weight of cars versus the owners manual weight vary greatly. I was able to remove a few hundred pounds without taking points as my car had lots of options like a 11 speaker stereo with amps, roll bar, harnesses, electric sunroof etc.

I wouldn't worry about weight points until you start removing more or start winning the class :wink:

, especially if you have any options like power seats, sunroof, nice stereo, cab, targa, bigger wheels and tires, harness bars, 5 point belts, fire extinguisher, etc. At first, it seems to be easier to go up in weight than down.

Good luck and most people don't really care all that much about minor tech violations. Just don't knowingly cheat or blatantly violate the rules and remember we are all just out there to have fun as the pay sucks as a career :cry:

Posted: **Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:01 pm**

Jad wrote:... as the pay sucks as a career

Unless you are Michael Schumacher, with a $40 Million annual salary from Ferrari, plus another $40+ Million a year in endorsements - 2nd highest paid celebrity in the world in 2004, according to Forbes. :wink:

Posted: **Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:14 pm**

yeah, but when was the last time he was TTOD at one of our AX?

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:58 am**

sushinav wrote:I have pulled my AC, spare tire and a few little things, how do I measure my weight loss? Is a guesstimate ok, or do I need to weigh my car?

You should weigh it. As Jad noted, and I have been told the same by others, most models (especially high-optioned ones) weigh as much as 1-200 lbs. over the listed curb weight in the manual. This allows a lot of leeway in removing weight before incurring a point penalty under our rules. On my '67 911S, I have removed the 50 lbs. of cast iron ingots in the front bumpers, installed lighter sport seats, removed the spare, tool kit and jack, and my car still weighs 2370 lbs. with a 3/4-full tank of gas. The listed curb weight for my model is 2271 lbs., so I could still run the tank empty and be above that figure.

If you do not get the actual weight measured during a corner balance, which should be routine if you are serious about competing, then just drive it to a moving and storage or recycling station and put it on the truck scales. They are accurate within 20 lbs. or so, and it costs me $3 for a "non-certified" weight slip when I do this at Eddco Recycling.

TT

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:30 am**

There is a scale at the Mayflower Moving company just east of Pioneer Porsche on the same side of the street.

They told me their accuracy was +/- 20 pounds.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:32 am**

Yes, I used this for my motorhome but make sure you are really on the scale. I tried weighing corners and the scale is flat but everything around the scale is lower. The entire scale area is crowned. BTW, they charge 6 bucks for axles and 10 buck for corners.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:19 am**

I have too often seen this question about weight and I still dont understand how anyone can be serious enough to be counting points without having FIRST done corner balanced and aligned the car. As Tom said:

get the actual weight measured during a corner balance, which should be routine if you are serious about competing

Perhaps this is not emphasized enough to people new to the sport, so let me state it again. The first mod that you should do to your car is to have it corner balanced and a more aggressive alignment. Oh, and by the way, it is no points mod.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:08 am**

David J Marguglio wrote: The first mod that you should do to your car is to have it corner balanced and a more aggressive alignment.

I will add that it should be done by a Race shop. Not the dealer, or Joe Shmoe's Tune and Align. You want the alignment to be exact, not a rough guess close enough to factory specifications.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:33 pm**

Well Dave,
I was counting points before corner balancing because:
A. The application says to.
B. I can't afford a corner balance.
C. I'm not as serious about this as you, I just wanted to get the application filled out correctly.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:37 pm**

My 0.02 cents re David's post.

Absolutely agree with your comments on an agressive alignment (for those interested, see my post on "Suspension 101 for novice drivers" in the Technical forum).

If you are still running with a factory setup, you are giving away a LOT of time.
Also, the suspension setup CAN be done by any competent shop, including the dealers, as part of a normal service, and isn't very expensive.

On the other hand, is corner balancing really that important for those of us in street cars, especially the newer models?

I can understand corner balancing a race car, or one that has had a lot of changes to the installed equipment (and weight distribution). But, in an AX environment at the Q, how much time can you really expect to gain by doing a corner balance on an SS car?

Inquiring minds want to know! :roll:

Seriously, I am hoping one or more real technical wizards will chime in and explain the value of corner balancing on our street stock cars. If we are only talking one or two tenths of a second, most of us SS drivers have a ways to go in learning skills before corner balancing becomes important. If it could be a second or more, then you have my interest.

If it is worth that much, maybe I should see about corner balancing my car and really try to catch you KP guys. :lol:

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:48 pm**

Kim,

I think you are right cornerbalancing will add very little in SS , but does make the little difference. In KP no mistakes are allowed. :lol:

In street stock, I think a good alignment with negative camber in all four corners, a good street tire should be enough to be competitive.

Of course my car was fully setup to the max of what the rules allowed (has not changed) and you did beat me at my last LSS event with only an aligment and good street tires.

:lol:

Have not forgotten that one :lol:

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:45 pm**

Kim Crosser wrote:On the other hand, is corner balancing really that important for those of us in street cars, especially the newer models?

Kim-
It will not make that big a difference in a newer street car until you begin to modify it. The factory has a spec for corner balance on new cars which is close enough for most purposes (something like 20 kilos difference on the diagonals.) When you get to the point where you lower it and install height-adjustable coilovers, or start removing or shifting around a lot of fixed weight in the car, that's the time to get it checked, along with your re-alignment. You can get some pretty evil handling effects from a car that is grossly off on the corner weights if it is driven at the limit, like different steering balance in left turns vs. right turns and locking of one wheel under heavy braking, etc. If you don't experience problems of that sort, don't bother. When you start adjusting ride height and jacking weight around, you should probably pay attention to it.

TT

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:07 pm**

Kim Crosser wrote:Also, the suspension setup CAN be done by any competent shop, including the dealers, as part of a normal service, and isn't very expensive.

Of course it CAN be done by anyone. Including yourself with a piece of string and a measuring tape. But if you want the most out of your $$ you should have someone who knows it's going to be raced set it up properly.

Factory specs can allow for up to +/- half a degree in camber and other settings. I don't remember exactly, but I remember my car, straight from the showroom was something like 0.5 different from right to left on the camber. If you are serious about the setup, "Good enough" should not be good enough.

Pioneer Centers may set your car up, but they are the anomoly when it comes to dealers. Most will only set it to factory specs and send you on your way.

PCA SDR

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