Time Trial resuslts are posted here.......

[bibbetson]

...given all the misclassifications and missed points on so many cars, particularly those RS America's.

Kathump - I swear I just heard an RS America get thrown under a bus.

That's awsome. I didn't even have to do it.

[Curt]

This club seems to have added quite a few trash talkers to the ranks over the last few years. It's good to not feel so alone anymore.

Carry on.

[pdy]

Nice Avitar, Curt .... But I thought John was the drummer

[Curt]

Actually John was the guitarist and singer. Ringo was the drummer.

Now seriously, get this thread back on track. Quick someone make fun of Jad!

[Mike]

I do not find WSIR much of a technical challenge to driver. It is just a big balls track with little reward for good technical driving......sorry!

I find Big Willow with the elevation changes, higher speeds and run off areas more interesting than California Speedway.

Imho it takes bigger stones at CS to go flat out through the long NASCAR T1+2 with the outside wall just 2 or 3 lanes above you.

[kary]

I do not find WSIR much of a technical challenge to driver. It is just a big balls track with little reward for good technical driving......sorry!

I find Big Willow with the elevation changes, higher speeds and run off areas more interesting than California Speedway.

Imho it takes bigger stones at CS to go flat out through the long NASCAR T1+2 with the outside wall just 2 or 3 lanes above you.

Interesting perspective Mike. Here is my prespective on my statement related to yours.

The elevation changes are nothing at the Speedway, correct, the elevation changes at WSIR are insignificant because they are not really in play in the scheme of the overall lap time. Turns 3, 4 ,5, and even 6 are just places to make mistakes not gain time by good driving. WSIR lap times are maked fron turn 7,8,9,1 and 2. That is where the speed is carried and gained. The infield at the Speedway you can gain huge time in a lap if driven technically well. For those that do not drive turns 3 & 4, turns 5 and 6, run flat out in 7 and 8, negotiate turn 9 correctly and drive 12, 13 through 18 correctly will suffer big time for poor driving.

If you want hills and challenge, go to Laguna Seca or Sears Point (Infineon), those are real elevation changes that are technically challenging and reward a good driver with a great time if driven well.

As far as speed at the Speeday on the banking I have to say that it is easier at the Speedway then at WSIR in terms of guts. I am running flat out in 5th gear in my car in turn 8 at WSIR and through turn 1 and turn 2 at the Speedway. I am going about 5 to 8 MPH faster at the Speedway versus WSIR in those comparable turns. Now, given that, which takes bigger stones? In turn 8 @ WSIR my car is drifting out on a relatively flat surface only to be greeted with a slight drop off to dirt, ditches, K rails and then a wall. Following that is a turning brake zone and a decreasing radius turn 9 you need to negoitiate. At the Speedway there is 18 degrees of banking, at least 3 lines you can drive through it with varing levels of difficulty and safety, and short of a tire blowout you will never see the upper wall like you could see at WSIR. So I do not believe the Speedway is even near the require stones as WSIR if you want a good lap time for those reasons. This is also why I find WSIR rather boring and dangerous, that is, if you want a great lap time. The consequences at WSIR are far more severe if you really push the limits versus the Speedway.

Love to hear opinions on this!

BTW, the facilities at the Speedway are far better, the weather is usually better, the track surface is far better, and on and on and on

[Jad]

Well, if you'd love to hear opinions .....

Laguna Seca is awesome, but you must admit, the left turn after the corkscrew takes such big ones, I don't know anyone that really pushes it there (besides the pro's). The rest of the track is great, but that turn would have good payoff in lap time, but huge problems if taken wrong. Far worse than Willow as there is little runoff.

Pahrump is the safest track in my opinion. Very technical, but nothing that ever makes you feel like you are about to die. The addition will be fun to see. Pahrump is very hard on tires and the hotel is even harder on lungs.

BW is fun but I feel (though most don't) that it is the most dangerous track of them all. Between Riverside, Lost Hills and Sunset, there are 3 challenging places that can easily destroy your car (not to mention the bus stop which got one last year). Too many high speed corners with soft dirt 'runoffs' or pit walls.

Fontana I think is mostly psychological. The wall looks scary at 135 mph (which is way faster than turn 8 at Willow in my car ~15 mph?) I doesn't take much skill to drive 1 & 2, just faith in the car. But with the safer barriers and our speeds, it probably isn't as dangerous as it feels. The infield I believe is great. It really allows numerous fast and safe lines that reward good driving. I think it would be even better in 8/10th scale so HP isn't so important, but the turns really allow good drivers to gain big time without risking much in a great facility that you can watch on TV 5-10 times a year.

Willow is the benchmark track. I believe it has some of everything. You need bravery for 8 & 9 along with high speed car control, but the runoff is very substantial. Eventually there is a wall, but it is so far off the track you won't have much speed left. Your car will be VERY dirty though. The ups and downs through the omega I feel are very technical and challenging, especially turn 5 which is the most important corner on the track, not sure why Kary thinks it is a giveaway. It leads onto the longest "straight".

So each track has its pluses and minuses and I certainly wouldn't rule any out.

Kary, I think you just had a bad weekend, but you gotta keep driving Big Willow, it is the track that offers everything both good and bad and sets the time for all of the SoCal Benchracing.

See what happens when you ask for opinions, you get'em

[kary]

Well, if you'd love to hear opinions .....

Kary, I think you just had a bad weekend, but you gotta keep driving Big Willow, it is the track that offers everything both good and bad and sets the time for all of the SoCal Benchracing.

See what happens when you ask for opinions, you get'em

Jad, why do you think I had a bad weekend? My opinion of WSIR was the same prior to the weekend. I was only there to test out my motor coach and towing the trailer....and to support our time trail series

As far as turn 5, that is the easiest corner on the track to drive, at least for my car. I aim inside the apex by about 2 feet and the car drifts out the apex allowing for a nice set up over the bump under full power from the turn 5 apex all the way to braking before turn 9. What is tough about that? Turn 9 is tricky for sure.

Youir comments about buttonwillow are interesting also. I find that track very easy to drive safely and fast. Very technical as is substantiated by the last time trail times for some folks.

Laguna turn 8 or 9 I beleive, is tricky if you choose to turn in early. Very challenging, but can be pushed to the limit with severe consequences for sure.

[Mike]

Youir comments about buttonwillow are interesting also. I find that track very easy to drive safely and fast. Very technical as is substantiated by the last time trail times for some folks.

I like BW but I think the track layout on the left side is too tight and too slow. I like the right side, good flow but the left side just before and over the bunny hill seems like miniture golf for such a long track.

Laguna is a gut check track. I drove it during a DE. The Rainy curve Jad mentioned and T6 climbing the hill both take big attachments to complete at 10/10ths.
Sitting at the camp spot above and outside T6 it is impressive to see the few drivers that really can throw it into T6. I imagine that effort pays off well with the long uphill straight that follows.

Parump was kinda like a double DE at the Q. The new addition looks awesome and removes my least favorite tight section of the track.
Look forward to trying the extended version. I hear it may be ready for the SDR PCA TT this fall.

[Tim Comeau]

David, Are you reading DNR as DNF?
John Rickard and I chose to DNR (did not race) because we felt we had learned a bunch, had a great time, and there was that heat thing too......
We, like many others, were just there for the ejemecation and fun.

I like your idea of taking any official posted time during the weekend as your representative fastest lap. That negates the need for switching to the timing format and results in more track time. It's also a more true measure of what a driver is actually capable of. On the other hand, some believe that the ability of being "instant on" during the timed laps is an integral part of the event. I personally believe that format worked best in the past when timing was conducted from the side of the track with a pair of stop watches, one car at a time.
There's no traffic during timed laps, but everybody should be able to rip off a few good clean laps during the weekend in the "open" sessions?
The POC was wading in to this type of timing for their TT's last year.

[MVZ944T]

Well I will through my two cents worth in.
Kary, I think you are mistaken about turns 3, 4, and 5 and 6. There can be some time gained in these corners depending on the line. I have picked up a good deal of time in this section by using a somewhat different line than most. I agree with Jad also about turn 5 and 6. You need a good exit from 5 and 6 to get the most down the back straight and into 8. I will agree that it is not the most technical track around and it does take some conjones to get around 8 and 9. All things considered, I have picked up a good 2-3 seconds on the track for last year and I don't think that I am going around 8-9 much faster now than I did then. Most of my increase has been from 2 through 6.
From a safety standpoint, I have made the scary run from early in 9 toward the wall and to whomever made the comment that it is a long way off needs to hit the dirt there at over 100mph and see just how close it really is. I would agree that turn 8-9 can have sme pretty hairy consequences, but I would disagree with those comments about Fontana being safer. Soft wall or not, I don't want to hit the banking wall. While your initial contact my be slightly lessened, your chances of bouncing back into the track and oncoming traffic is very high. But more than that, there is a whole lot of concrete in the infield. Just because you may be driving parallel to them does not mean you cannot hit them head on (Dale Earnhart for example). having said that, I really like Fontana.

Buttonwillow certainly has its hazards, but virtually all tracks do. I think the worst thing about BW is the soil is so soft that if you get sideways your chances of rolling are greater than if the soil was firmer. Particularly at speed. All those names in the parking area are there for a reason. As far as bus stop claiming the two lives last year, in my opinion, that was caused by pure stupidity, not by that section of the track being hazardous.

Bottom line in my opinion is you can (and should) be able to learn something from most any track, so while I like some better than others, I try to drive as many as I can.

[kary]

Well I will through my two cents worth in.
Kary, I think you are mistaken about turns 3, 4, and 5 and 6. There can be some time gained in these corners depending on the line. I have picked up a good deal of time in this section by using a somewhat different line than most. I agree with Jad also about turn 5 and 6. You need a good exit from 5 and 6 to get the most down the back straight and into 8. I will agree that it is not the most technical track around and it does take some conjones to get around 8 and 9. All things considered, I have picked up a good 2-3 seconds on the track for last year and I don't think that I am going around 8-9 much faster now than I did then. Most of my increase has been from 2 through 6.
From a safety standpoint, I have made the scary run from early in 9 toward the wall and to whomever made the comment that it is a long way off needs to hit the dirt there at over 100mph and see just how close it really is. I would agree that turn 8-9 can have sme pretty hairy consequences, but I would disagree with those comments about Fontana being safer. Soft wall or not, I don't want to hit the banking wall. While your initial contact my be slightly lessened, your chances of bouncing back into the track and oncoming traffic is very high. But more than that, there is a whole lot of concrete in the infield. Just because you may be driving parallel to them does not mean you cannot hit them head on (Dale Earnhart for example). having said that, I really like Fontana.

Buttonwillow certainly has its hazards, but virtually all tracks do. I think the worst thing about BW is the soil is so soft that if you get sideways your chances of rolling are greater than if the soil was firmer. Particularly at speed. All those names in the parking area are there for a reason. As far as bus stop claiming the two lives last year, in my opinion, that was caused by pure stupidity, not by that section of the track being hazardous.

Bottom line in my opinion is you can (and should) be able to learn something from most any track, so while I like some better than others, I try to drive as many as I can.

I believe that if each of us were to drive each others cars at these tracks, we would quickly realize that each of our comments might very quickly apply to these tracks. Mike, I would be scared out of my mind with your 944 turbo going into NASCAR turn 1 and 2 at full throttle. If you used my car you would see it is no big deal short of a tire blow out, which I had a right rear go down in turn two and made it out ok.

As far as WSIR get more time in the omega area, yes, any track can be driven better, but I simply find that track rather boring and really not that much fun compared to Laguna, Sears, Pahrump or even the Speedway, but then that is in my car not yours. I seem to recall you mentioning to me that you did not like Pahrump Mike, it did not suit your car or your driving. I can understand that. Again, difference in car makes a difference on how and what happens on these tracks.

[Steve Grosekemper]

Well I guess it is time for me to throw in my two pennies.

I used to think Willow was all about just going fast and was not really that technical. This last visit the car was working really well and I had a lot more time to concentrate on my driving. That being said, I think I only have 3 events here so I am a complete newby and my only goal is to be faster than last time and keep at least 3 wheel on the track at all times.

I think Willow has corners that are very technical, (just not all of them) if you want to extract the last few tenths out of them. Finally felt like I was using all the track I paid for in one, instead of chickening out. 3&4 can gain huge time for carrying speed down track. 8 is just fast and as much fun as you can have doing nothing other that pushing your right foot to the floor! 9.... Man will I ever get this right? I actually figured out where 9 starts this weekend and gained about 8 MPH by the start/finish line, which was huge for my small displacement car.

Definatley the most fun I have had at this track, because I felt like I was driving smart, not just fast.

Once you've been off 8 backwards and been a cars length from the wall the whole thing doesn't seem so scarry. (And that was my FIRST track day at willow) No wonder no one ever asks me for instruction...

As for other tracks, I find the banking at Fontana the most terrifying. I try not to think about a RF blowout there but it is never far from my thoughts. Really love that track. Except for the brake wear

With Buttonwillow I just try to remember "Go off straight!" But going off lost hill at speed is not something I want to do....Straight or otherwise!

Pahrump is just not my favorite track, eats tires, too rustic and going off seems ugly. It won't be fast, but those rocks look nasty!
I am really looking forward to the improvements.

Did you ever think you could have this much fun in a car?

[Steve Grosekemper]

Kary is right, There are parts of this track (Willow) that are like a sunday drive in my car, but when I drove Stacy Smith's little tire, no wing, 74 911 I almost had a heart attack!

A very different experience!

[Mike]

I like your idea of taking any official posted time during the weekend as your representative fastest lap. There's no traffic during timed laps, but everybody should be able to rip off a few good clean laps during the weekend in the "open" sessions?
The POC was wading in to this type of timing for their TT's last year.

I like this idea too. At a minimum it would be nice to be able to use weekend lap times to determine an outcome in the event timed runs can not be completed. Ex. rain out, equipment failure or other.