UGH! Help with finding a car.

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UGH! Help with finding a car.

Postby David J Marguglio on Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:38 am

I have for the last few months been searching for a clean 964 or RSA. My criteria is that it be a coupe, 5 speed, great shape mech and cosmetically, clean title, and within a 100 mile radius. I prefer go-fast parts (coilovers, cup flyweel, etc.) but it is not required. I have missed out on two cars that were purchased before I could have a proper PPI. So I am going to try to go at this from a different direction. Does anyone have or know someone that has a car that might be willing to sell?
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Las Vegas....

Postby Michael Dolphin on Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:21 am

David, saw just such a car listed in the Las Vegas Region newsletter this past weekend. I don't have it with me, but it might be listed on their website.
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Postby Burl East on Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:53 pm

David,

Best place for an RSA is RSAmerica.net. Has a very deep supply of cars in all states of SS, S,KP, JI, HM or AR. I would advise NOT building a car - buy one already set up. Rule of thumb is that for every dollar you put into the car in race stuff the car losses $.20 in value as the market for re-sale narrows.

Standard 964 costs $10k less but they are less structurally rigid and weigh more, - but you can do what Martin has done and basically manufacture an RS from a 964 (although you can't manufacture a seem welded tub)

Figure out what class you want to race in then buy a car that fits that class.

It would be great if you would race in JI - we have a really competitive group and on any day anyone could win. Its really fun, and unlike KP all the cars in JI are almost exactly the same - all RS's or 964s - no 944s or 968s.

:D
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Postby MikeD on Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:51 pm

Burl East wrote:
Standard 964 costs $10k less but they are less structurally rigid and weigh more, - but you can do what Martin has done and basically manufacture an RS from a 964 (although you can't manufacture a seem welded tub)


Not to start and argument, or be the bearer of bad news. But I understood that RSA's having a "seem welded tub" is a myth. There was a debate on this subject (and other RSA myths) on Rennlist last year. However, I have heard that you can get a tub (for any Porsche) seem welded for something like $10K.
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Postby MikeD on Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:58 pm

Dave,

In my exploring around the 'net I have seen a number of possible candidates. However, I would suggest you widen your circle. You will have many more options available if you do not limit yourself to 100 miles.

Have you checked the classifieds on pca.org? Or rennlist.com?
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Postby kary on Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:54 pm

David, I think you might want to consider NOT buying a 964 or RSA. From everyone that I know who has tracked these cars (except Jack), they have spent quite a bit more money maintaining these cars as compared to a 993 for example. I know the cost of a good 993 is higher than an RSA but from my travels it seems less expesnive to run a 993 as compared to a 964 based car.

Any others care to share their opinons on this?
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Postby Jad on Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:39 am

If you want to go fast, for the least amount of money, have you considered just getting a 944 turbo? You know the cars very well and have experience driving them.

Also, for under $20K, you can easily have a 300hp sub 2800lbs car with a rebuilt engine, new suspension and great reliability. For only a little more money, the HP goes wherever you want, but reliability will go down.

Bang for the buck, an '86 turbo for $2-3K is the way to go or buy one already built for around $10-15K. If you want a 964, just buy Keiths RSA, I am sure he will sell it cheap :shock: :lol: Actually, there are a lot out there, just be patient and they will show up.
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Postby jack miller on Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:48 am

kary wrote:David, I think you might want to consider NOT buying a 964 or RSA. From everyone that I know who has tracked these cars (except Jack), they have spent quite a bit more money maintaining these cars as compared to a 993 for example. I know the cost of a good 993 is higher than an RSA but from my travels it seems less expesnive to run a 993 as compared to a 964 based car.

Any others care to share their opinons on this?


As you might expect, I differ. Steve Gerken and I probably have 20k track miles between us on our cars in the last few years. I've missed 2 afternoons of due to mechanical trouble in all that time. Once was a busted wheel hub and the other an oil leak that turned out to be a 90 cent part. Heck, I blew the alternator and only missed one session because Jae had a spare in his trunk. I don't remember Steve ever sitting out a session. As for expense of parts that might be true. 964 parts are a bit more unique, but I don't know how much that affects price anymore. None of this is to say that the 993 is not a great car. However, any mods to it can put you into the red group with POC. Wanna watch cups cars pass you all day long? I also don't like how PCA classifies the RSA. If you're gonna run with PCA race groups, the 964 is better, IMO. You can modify it to the max and just be in D, whereas you are bit more limited w/the RSA. That and the RSA price premium leads me to suggest the 964. Nonetheless, the RSA can be competitive in D. Believe it or not, the 965 (turbo) can run in D with suspension mods. I'll be running a 965 at Road America, although we'll be in C because of bigger brakes.

Dave, talk to John Rickard about the 964. He'll attest to their reliability. He could also fill you in on price of parts. I am, fortunately, no expert on that, since I've only needed minor stuff. As for the 944 turbos, it seems to me that the turbo guys are always working on their cars. I've seen more of them miss sessions than anyone else. Of course, that observation is not scientific and may have to do with them pushing the boost more than they should.

If you're gonna run w/POC, look at the older 911s that have been modified to run R5. They're more competitive than the 964 since they made the rules for them. Greg Smith (not MD-Greg), try greg_911@msn.com or 858-270-5478, may still have his V3/R5 for sale if that has any appeal. However, it puts you in Gt3(?) w/PCA. It's very hard to get a car that can run very competitively in both club...other than 944 spec, but you've done that.

I agree with whoever said to buy a prepped car rather than build it. Buying parts new, whatever kind of car it is, is an expensive proposition.
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Postby David J Marguglio on Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:58 am

Kary and Jad, I appreciate your suggestions and they are both valid, but what I really really want, in the dark recesses of my mind...is to be like Burl. And to be like Burl, I need a RSA, a Z8 and a really cool helmet. But the RSA is a good start.

Jack, I agree with everything you say about the 964 and that is still my target, but I am having trouble finding one that has decent go-fast parts. It seems that people are more likely to do serious mods to RSA's (Martin being the exception). In any case, I have broadened my search; I spoke with a guy that runs a dealership in Houston (say it isnt so y'all) that has a "whole mess" of 964's. Definately a lot more logistical work (PPI, shipping, etc.) but if I cant find anything local, what can I do?
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Postby Jad on Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:24 am

I am sure you already know this, but a few key things I learned when I was buying my 964:

1) DON'T get one with any oil leaks - they may claim it is minor, but many of the leaks come from a non-sealing engine case and cost several thousand to fix. Porsche did not use a gasket and some engines sealed perfectly, others.......

2) Be sure there is a vent kit installed on the distributor if it is an early 964. Simple kit, but the distributor is expensive to fix if the belt goes and it can destroy your engine.

3) Clutches were a problem in the early years so finding one with low mileage and original clutch isn't really a great thing. The updated clutches solved the problems.

4) If you are keeping the A/C, make sure it blows cold as again, the repair can be really expensive especially if the system has been dry for awhile.

5) Many people believe (including me) that removing the underpan is a good thing. It is for noise insulation and keeps significantly more heat in the engine.

6) As a track car, avoid C4's as the weight penalty seems to be hard to overcome and the computer does not like mods to the wheels and tires.

The 964's seem to either be lemons that fall apart when really driven or tanks. Find one that has some miles and is holding up and you should be set.

In some ways, the 964 was my favorite Porsche. It is much more of a love/hate car, not a well rounded car like the 944 and current production Porsches. I didn't race it much, but Bruno and Christine did after they bought it and seemed to really enjoy it on the track until they realized it was too nice to strip weight out- which is what it needed to go fast.

Good luck and get help with that Burl thing :?
Last edited by Jad on Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thanks

Postby David J Marguglio on Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:10 pm

Thanks Jad, some of that I had heard and others I had not. I need help for so many other things that the Burl thing is low on the list. :lol:
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Postby Tim Comeau on Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:56 pm

Dave, I'll call you.......... :D
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Postby jack miller on Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:58 pm

David J Marguglio wrote:Kary and Jad, I appreciate your suggestions and they are both valid, but what I really really want, in the dark recesses of my mind...is to be like Burl. And to be like Burl, I need a RSA, a Z8 and a really cool helmet. But the RSA is a good start.

Jack, I agree with everything you say about the 964 and that is still my target, but I am having trouble finding one that has decent go-fast parts. It seems that people are more likely to do serious mods to RSA's (Martin being the exception). In any case, I have broadened my search; I spoke with a guy that runs a dealership in Houston (say it isnt so y'all) that has a "whole mess" of 964's. Definately a lot more logistical work (PPI, shipping, etc.) but if I cant find anything local, what can I do?


I'll keep an eye out for cars for sale at Road America. There'll be a ton of D cars. Some should be for sale. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want a fully-prepped car. Basically, you want my car and Burl's helmet, right? Email me your specifics.
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Postby kary on Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:52 pm

Jad wrote:The 964's seem to either be lemons that fall apart when really driven or tanks. Find one that has some miles and is holding up and you should be set.


I think Jad hit the mark more effectively with what I was trying to say about 964's. Well said Jad! That is why I also mentioned the expection being Jack's car. Others I have seen have really been costly....
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Postby Burl East on Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:15 pm

David

Dude, you know I just work down the street and for a couple of bucks you can have your picture taken with me. :P Just kidding - it's way more than a couple of bucks.

Give me a call and I can walk you through the mods to my car, how I found it and what the costs were.

Having also owned a 993 (albeit a very uncompetitive one :lol: ) I like the RSA for the simple reason that it is mechanically simple - no radiator, no power steering, not too much computing power, basically a very simple car (for a very simple guy :shock: ) not a lot to go wrong.
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