Thanks for a fun and well run D.E.

[Pete Millikin]

Wow Dan, did you stay in a Holiday Inn last night? Keep it up and we'll start calling you Cliff Claven

So answer me this. Traction in the afternoon sessions is always lower than in the morning. My assumption is that the rising asphalt temperature reduces friction and is the overriding factor in lowering traction despite all the run sessions with cars laying down rubber. The higher surface temp heats tires faster beyond their optimal traction temp. Please submit an explanation citing appropriate scientific support.

[RickK]

Whle I am in favor of opening the QDE events to more drivers and higher turn-outs I am not sure that relaxing safety requirements is the way to go. While QDE speeds are not significantly greater than west lot AX speeds there are passing zones at QDEs and passing, along with close following, creates car to car contact opportunities that AX never has. I think car to car contact is the probably the highest risk incident that we can encounter out there in the west lot and needs to be carefully considered. The simple fact that we have had few car to car contact incidents in our history may not be enough to discount the possibility and ignore the potential.

As a cab driver myself, I can say that I would have attended a QDE without my rollbar had I been allowed, but now with several years of driving experience behind me I never would do that now. While I think that a cab with a rollbar is nearly as safe as a coupe, and safe enough for events, without it there is just too much risk, especially if you allow older cabs without reinforced windshield frames. I think that is okay to let drivers experience an autox and then to move up to DEs (QDE or big tracks) they need to make a small investment in safety.

[ttweed]

Whle I am in favor of opening the QDE events to more drivers and higher turn-outs I am not sure that relaxing safety requirements is the way to go.

Rick-
The only relaxation of safety requirements that I would advocate is for Novice drivers in the SS and S classes, as is currently allowed for belts. I believe that anyone progressing beyond the student level in DE should definitely pony up for the safety equipment necessary, as you say. But for students in unmodified cars, at parking lot events, who will have an instructor in their car at all times during their novice track experience, I have no problem with allowing preparation to a lower level of safety, which might include no fire extinguisher, no rollover protection and no arm restraints for Cab's and Roadsters. The students run in a separate group, and usually at much slower speeds, with oversight by the instructor, so I just don't see any big risks there in the parking lot.

For big track events, yes--I definitely think we need the full prep standards for everyone. The speeds are much higher on the big tracks, and there just isn't the runoff available to safely dodge spinning cars or spin off yourself with no consequences. I think the Q is another story, though, and a perfect place to allow people to move up a step to try it before making the big leap off the slippery slope. I think that is the way to increase the participation, by allowing someone a taste of speed without committing to major investment in equipment and necessary mods, like drilling holes in their floor pans, etc. Once they get hooked, they will ante up. I'm just following the age old dictum of the drug dealer--"Here, kid, the first one's free!"

What other ways do you see for "opening the events to more drivers and higher turnouts?"

TT

[ajackson]

I think it is important to remember the goal of each piece of saftey item and think how it applies to a QDE. Fire extinguisher for example may be less needed because corner workers are never that far from you. Rollover protection is less needed because there is very little chance of flipping in a parking lot.

These things are still a good idea, but the specifics of a situation may warrant letting people do a couple DE's without them without reducing the specific saftey of the event in question.

[Jad]

My concern is with the newer cars. A 997S cab is going to be brutaly fast at a QDE, especially with a novice at the wheel. The approach speeds of that car on a 944 in a student group will be giant and may warrant the need for belts and roll bars. I agree the need for a fire extinguisher is minimal. If my car is on fire, getting out is way more important than trying to find and release the extinguisher.

Maybe we need to go POC style and say cars in M class and above need the equipment, but lower classes do not as novices? Yes it hurts to add a hole to your new car, but if you can afford a $90k track car, buying belts won't break you.

[bobbrand]

I think it is important to remember the goal of each piece of saftey item and think how it applies to a QDE. Fire extinguisher for example may be less needed because corner workers are never that far from you.

Yes. I think it is important to remember that, and it may be different than what people think. My eyes were opened during the last Holtville time trial we did many years ago when Rod ?'s 928 lost brakes and catapult itself about 100 feet into the desert. The manifolds were resting on some brush which caught fire.

Myself and Tom Perkowski were corner workers at that end of the track, and arrived very quickly with fire extinguishers. Rod's was in his car, and nobody was going to go in there to get it. By this time, the course was red flagged, and a lot of folks stopped on that side of the course ran down with their fire extinguishers to help. We used about ten of them to try to get that fire out. The halon extinguishers would take out the fire, but the fire would spontaneously ignite again. The chemical extinguishers actually worked better for this case. In the end the car burned a lot, but not completely thanks to all of those extinguishers. Of course, the fact that all of the wheels were broke off of the car, and it half burned meant that it was toast anyway.

So, keep in mind that the extinguisher in your car may not be used on your own car. In fact, if you need to get out quick, you may find yours trapped inside like Rod's was. And also remember what the last major car fire on the freeway you saw looked like, and how you think it might do against a single fire extinguisher. Having ten or fifteen in the area is a better feeling.

Ok, so we don't have brush to catch fire at the Q, but I like having all of those fire extinguishers around.

[MikeD]

I think we might be forgetting recent incidences all to quickly.

A stock CGT would be in an SS class and I personally would not want to instruct in one without all required safety equipment. Whether it be at the Q or WSIR. As Jad mentions that same can be said of a stock 997S, or a 996 GT3, or a stock ... Just because it's stock doesn't mean it will be slow enough to be safe without the required equipment.

If a person wants to DE bad enough they will spend the $$ to get the safety equipment. Like Rick said, when I was a novice I went out with the minimum requirements. I know better now and would still get the same gear (or more) even if it wasn't required. We are the "experts" and the novices are counting on us to guide them correctly down this path.

PCA has a reputation for being very strict about this sort of thing. And I think it is appropriate.

[Gary Burch]

First of all I am not sure we need more people at the driving events at the "Q". Saturday we had 110 for the ax and 49 for the QDE. Both amounts are perfect IMOH. If we start relaxing the safety rules and get more people to attend the QDE's then we have more inexperienced people in not unsafe, but less safe cars. If you don't think it is dangerous in the student group ask Jackie Corwin.

I know it's not as fast or as dangerous as a big track, but it is still fast and with 10-15 cars on the track alot of things can happen. Especially to drivers with less experience.

[RickK]

New cars like 996 and 997/997S Cabs are definitely fast but at least they have built in pop-up roll bars so they may not be a problem if the driver passes a broomstick test. It is the older cars like 87-98 911 Cabs and 968 Cabs that would scare me, not to mention Speedsters with no supportive structure above your head at all. Maybe people would deem it safe to be in a Boxter or 996/997 Cab with a 3-point belt and a rollbar that does not meet the broomstick rule, but it wouldn't make me feel safe.

One real thing to consider when going down this path is whether or not enough instructors will volunteer to get into these "unprotected" cars with unkown drivers and take the risk - however small some may think it is.

I agree with MikeD, PCA has a reputation for putting on excellent and safe events and do we want to jeopardize that reputation? Also, we (as a whole) are the experts (or at least seasoned novices in my case) and we should point the noobies in the right direction. Let's face it this is not an inexpensive sport we have chosen and I can speak from experience that I thought I would never drill holes in my precious car for a rollbar or harnesses so I stayed away from DE and TT events until I couldn't stand it and then I caved in - bought a rollbar, drilled some holes and here I am - the safer and the happier for it.

[Greg Phillips]

PCA has a reputation for being very strict about this sort of thing. And I think it is appropriate.

I think that PCA does have a good reputation, but the rules are quite variable from Zone to Zone and region to region. One example is Zone 1 and specifically Northern New Jersey Region is a large active region that puts on 8-12 big track events (DE) each year. They do not require 5 point harnesses. They only require fire extinguishers in the more advanced groups, but they do have a broomstick rule. But this is for Watkins Glen, Lime Rock, VIR etc. , not a parking lot venue

I am not sure the risks in the parking lot require the same level of safety equipment as Willow Springs et al. Especially since others have been able to have successful and safe track events with less stringent rules.

Greg

[Jad]

Ugh, Greg, about 2 weeks ago someone was killed at a PCA DE at Watkins Glen. Don't know the details, but not the best example and their rules will probably change.

[Jackie C]

Since my name was brought into the mix...(I KNOW you wouldn't "pick" on me personally, Mr. Burch). However, I do have to say that as an instructor, you may find yourself in unpredictable situations and it's best to have the usual safety gear in place, if ever needed. Although I'm not recommending HANS devices, all it takes is a momentary lapse in judgement and little separation between cars and an opportunity to have metal to metal/concrete contact is staring you right in the face. There's not always a whole lot you can do about that from the passenger seat, and I would feel better knowing the car and driver are equipped for any impact. It wasn't that long ago that we had some student cars seriously damaged in our parking lot-even though they had instructors on board. Something to consider.
Blue skies,

[Greg Phillips]

Ugh, Greg, about 2 weeks ago someone was killed at a PCA DE at Watkins Glen. Don't know the details, but not the best example and their rules will probably change.

Yes I knew about that one, I think he was running with Reisentoter Region. I don't argue that accidents can happen and people can die on the tracks, but that we need to assess our risk at each venue and have the requirements be appropriate for that venue.
If he had a roll bar and harness and HANS device, he might be alive, or he still might have been killed, can't know. Remember that Porsche feels these cars are safe for use on the autobahn in traffic at 100+ mph with the factory safety equipment.
Should we have to go to roll cages, 5 points and HANS device for the autocross? We have had more contact at the autocrosses than DE's so far. Where do you draw the line?
Has Zone 1 been lucky and it ran out, or is it just that accidents can happen anywhere?

Greg

[RickK]

Has Zone 1 been lucky and it ran out, or is it just that accidents can happen anywhere?
Greg

I am of the school that luck can run out and accidents can happen anywhere, Watkins Glenn, Fontana, an AutoX.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we need to go to firesuits, HANS, full cages and built-in fire suppression systems for QDEs but no rollover protection at all in car seems to take the risks all too lightly. Of course even with lower requirements in the rules each driver would still be free to equip their own car however they feel is required to keep them safe, but then the problem comes up again as to who will instruct in some of those cars.

If he had a roll bar and harness and HANS device, he might be alive, or he still might have been killed, can't know.

You are quite right, we can't know if those devices could have saved that guy and I just don't want to see PCA SD sitting around one afternoon after a devastation at a QDE asking that question about one of our own.

One other thing to keep in mind is that not all track incidents are simply driver error, stuff happens because of mechanical problems, either to your own car or one you are following and it may not be at a part of the track with the best runoff or where even carry a lot of speed, but the result can still be the same.

[Dan Chambers]

Wow Dan, did you stay in a Holiday Inn last night? Keep it up and we'll start calling you Cliff Claven

I gaining the wrong reputation....

So answer me this. Traction in the afternoon sessions is always lower than in the morning. My assumption is that the rising asphalt temperature reduces friction and is the overriding factor in lowering traction despite all the run sessions with cars laying down rubber. The higher surface temp heats tires faster beyond their optimal traction temp. Please submit an explanation citing appropriate scientific support.

Well, now Pete, you ask a great age-old question: why do I loose traction in the warm afternoons? Some thoughts:
1) Although some minute sand particles may be present on a morning track, for the most part there is very little "veneer" on the course. After a lap or two your tires are hot, the asphalt is somewhat cool, and the relationship between tire-to-road is relatively clean, allowing the softer component of the warm tire to squeeze into the "pours" of the cool asphalt on a microscopic level, and give you really secure-feeling grip. With minimal rubber "laid down" on the course, the relative pourosity of the AM track is high, and cool. Result: lots 'o' grip.
2) As the day wears on, and the temp climbs, two things happens First: a veneer of rubber from lots of hot tires on the same line gets laid down on the asphalt, and squeezed into the micro-pours that were present in the AM. So, the pourosity of the course changes(diminishes) as the day goes by, and the opportunity for a "clean" relationship gets corrupted by all that soft compound rubber being laid down under heat and pressure... and the tire compounds, by the way, are made of similar hydrocarbon compounds as bitumen, the asphalt binder (oh geeze ... not that bitumen thing again ). Second: the data about rubber compound to rubber compound traction coefficients as it might exist on asphalt is still being looked at. But my guess is warn-to-hot tires to asphalt (gravels and bitumen) is a better grip than hot rubber to warm rubber - as in afternoon track conditions. (Afterall, of you take two like compounds and rub them together, their specific hardnesses will tend to abrade each other evenly, and generate a zone of a friction-induced slip plane and heat. Add a little more heat to that equation [climbing temeratures and sun], and more slip-plane development could occur. Conversely, if you take two compounds with dissimilar hardnesses, one surface will be abraded rapidly while the other stays static. Heat will only cause more loss of the softer compound.)

So, here's a whacky thought: drive different lines AM and PM and see if your traction coefficient changes, is the same, or non-detectable.

Finally, there may be a "polishing" effect of ashalt by car tires that transport tiny bits of sand/abbrasive materials. Fast driving over the same line with heat, pressure, and repetition would cause repetitive polishing, creating a more slippery surface as the day goes by. By the end of the day, a slippery, polished surface?

So, those are my theories .... and it's all based on hypothesis. (Boy, I gotta start drinking decaf! )

Dan (aka Cliff)