911 Club Coupe

[Chris Benbow]

It's on a truck coming from North Carolina. Due here in a week. That should give me enough time to get it prepped for Pahrump.

[Bob Gagnon]

Kim Crosser asked:

Other than the dry sump, are there other specific technical problems with the 986/987/996/997 vehicles as "weekend warriors"?

Kim-

No special problems that I am aware of.

I think the brakes and the rest of the chassis is pretty nice stuff. I wonder how much torque can be consistently run through the rear suspension of the Boxster which uses the Mac Pherson strut front and rear. In the rear the Mac Pherson Strut is called a "Chapman Strut" though after Colin Chapman designed it for the Lotus Elite in the early 60's. The only other car to use this suspension I know of was the first generation of Nissan Z cars where is seemed to work fine in race duty.

I just wonder if their might be wear issues involving the strut because in the rear it has to absorb drive torque as well as cornering and braking forces. Again this is theory, but I wonder if a GT3 engine may bring out some issues over time if installed in a Cayman or Boxster and used on the track.

Even the lack of a dry sump is more of a theoretical disadvantage than a truly fatal flaw- kinda like the 356 which has been raced for years with special sumps, etc. to over come the issues.

Porsche did make a kit to improve the oil scavenging on the right had side of the 996 911 engine though. Apparently, oil was trapping in the forward area of the right hand cylinder head during combined cornering and braking. The kit consists of an extra scavenge pump stacked on top of the original pump with a line going from the new pump to the front of the cylinder head. Theoretically a Boxster would have this problem on the other side of the engine since the engine is turned around. This kit is sold by PMNA.

Porsche has made several modifications to the 996 wet sump with baffels, etc. installed over the years. I assume if one *really* was a serious warrior in track racing one would want all the updates installed.

All just my day-dreaming opinion, not based on experience.

[Jad]

Thanks for the answer Bob, that was very informative and even unbiased - not expected on the forum

Nice car Chris! Hopefully you didn't sell all your wine and can celebrate your purchase (sorry, no wine clink icon)

I bet you will be VERY fast in a GT3 once you get the suspension and tires set up correctly - watch out Dente's

[kary]

Thanks for the answer Bob, that was very informative and even unbiased - not expected on the forum

[rss996]

Having owned a 2000 996 and a base 05 997 I will give you my thoughts on this matter.

I am 35, married w/3 kids....had no prior knowledge of racing and did not follow or get into racing until a few years ago.

1. The typical Porsche buyer today ( and for quite a while I gather) does not care or know much about its racing history. Also, buyer does not know much or care about dry sump, integrated dry sump or wet sump.

Porsche figured out that they better sell to the masses or just vanish into thin air....They build a race type car (GT3) for the racers and a street car for guys like me who, at this stage in life, will not go to the track and race. We still want a fast car that handles well and yet can be taken out with the wife and a couple of kids tossed int the back.(997)....

If a company dwells too much on the past they wont last long into the future....You guys should be happy Porsche did what they did to survive and jsut keep on "fixing up" those old cars of yours in order to keep up with us.."Per Jad of course"....

I do agree that Porsche is a little out of hand with all the extra money they charge for bells and whistles....I bought a pretty basic 997 and did not fall inot the trap of getting reemed for a bunch of extras...

The more I learn about this stuff and after sitting in arbitration with Dynes V. Porsche, I can tell you that Porsche is in this for the money now( aren't most companies) and does not mind just flipping the bird to a certain small percentage of customers when it comes to racing the new era of P-cars.

I love my 997 and it fits the need of most people on the street. I am having a blast really getting to know and learn how to drive(auto x) etc....

We have a great bunch of teachers in this club!

Anyway, I can see how the old guard is upset at Porsche but you know what , they don't care because they know the future of Porsche lies in the younger up and coming generation who will buy their cars for different reasons than the days of old....

Just my .02!

[kary]

Having owned a 2000 996 and a base 05 997 I will give you my thoughts on this matter.

I am 35, married w/3 kids....had no prior knowledge of racing and did not follow or get into racing until a few years ago.

1. The typical Porsche buyer today ( and for quite a while I gather) does not care or know much about its racing history. Also, buyer does not know much or care about dry sump, integrated dry sump or wet sump.

Porsche figured out that they better sell to the masses or just vanish into thin air....They build a race type car (GT3) for the racers and a street car for guys like me who, at this stage in life, will not go to the track and race. We still want a fast car that handles well and yet can be taken out with the wife and a couple of kids tossed int the back.(997)....

If a company dwells too much on the past they wont last long into the future....You guys should be happy Porsche did what they did to survive and jsut keep on "fixing up" those old cars of yours in order to keep up with us.."Per Jad of course"....

I do agree that Porsche is a little out of hand with all the extra money they charge for bells and whistles....I bought a pretty basic 997 and did not fall inot the trap of getting reemed for a bunch of extras...

The more I learn about this stuff and after sitting in arbitration with Dynes V. Porsche, I can tell you that Porsche is in this for the money now( aren't most companies) and does not mind just flipping the bird to a certain small percentage of customers when it comes to racing the new era of P-cars.

I love my 997 and it fits the need of most people on the street. I am having a blast really getting to know and learn how to drive(auto x) etc....

We have a great bunch of teachers in this club!

Anyway, I can see how the old guard is upset at Porsche but you know what , they don't care because they know the future of Porsche lies in the younger up and coming generation who will buy their cars for different reasons than the days of old....

Just my .02!

Well said, as there is no disagreement with what Porsche is/are doing at this point. I agree Porsche may have gone out of business or maybe not been as profitable without some change.

However, like most business in this world, if you piss off your customers they will not come back. I am not talking about the old guard of Porsche owners (by the way, I am not much older than you rss996, I just happen to have been around with a few Porsche earlier in my life), I am talking about those folks today that are having issues with their cars, whether it be batteries that fail without replacement, or whole engines that fail and have to be replaced. Folks that accept that sort of low quality for what they pay for these cars will only allow Porsche to continue to produce the same level of car. Porsche will continue to make huge margins on these cars that do not cost as much to make as the earlier generations of cars.

[Bob Gagnon]

The only thing that will change the situation is an appreciation for better hardware by the marketplace.

As I said before, Porsche builds what the market wants and sells it at the highest price possible and this is managements job.

As long as people pay the price and like the cars, the cars will not change.

Here is something to think about as far as value and Porsche and what competitors may offer:

For $68,850 Audi will sell you the A8 which is an ALL ALUMINUM bodied 4 door sedan with a 5 valve per cylinder V8 engine, 4 wheel drive, computer controlled air suspension, and a 6 speed Tiptronic gearbox.

For $71,300 Porsche will sell you a Carrera which is a steel bodied 2 door sedan with a 4 valve per cylinder H-6 engine, 2 wheel drive, normal spring suspension and a 6 speed manual gearbox.

The A8 must cost a lot more to build than a 911 and I am not sure if volume is why they are cheaper, I'm not sure Audi sells more A8's than Porsche does 911's.

Imagine what Audi could do if they really wanted to build a sports car. I wonder what Porsche will do to differentiate itself in the future when just being a "Porsche" may not be enough.

[Chris Huck]

"Imagine what Audi could do if they really wanted to build a sports car. I wonder what Porsche will do to differentiate itself in the future when just being a "Porsche" may not be enough."

They DID - The TT! and wasn't that "Special." LOL

The TT was a direct competitor to Porsches' lowest ranked model that has been touted as the better car in all the car magazines ever since.

But Porsche didn't rest on their laurels! The 1997 Boxster WAS pretty nice, but look what the 2005 Boxster S (and now Cayman S!) has grown into!

More powerful, better handling, quieter, more standard features for similiar 1997 Boxster money, only roadster on the market with head protection airbags, finally an excellent stereo, and cupholders too ;^)

If you guys knew the PCNA/PAG employees that I do, you'd know they are just as enthusiastic/passionate as you guys! About the cars!

They're always trying to find out what they can improve or enhance with newly developed technology. They never feel the project is "done."

[Jad]

One point I think everyone is forgetting about is that perception is way more important than reality. The SUV market is huge because SUV's are cool, tough, safe off road vehicles - anyone think an Escalade or Lexus monster SUV is really a great offroad vehicle? But it doesn't need to be. Will people accept harsh rides, horrible handling and miserable fuel economy - yep, as long as they like the image the H2 Hummer portrays-after all, the ad says it handles like a sportscar. Audi and Porsche could build identical cars for years and people would complain the Audi is too loud rough and small, while the same people would complain the Porsche is to soft, big and luxurious.

Autoweek? just had a great article about someone who badmouthed the hype around hybrids. Lexus quickly responded with a challenge for him to drive across country in the new RX400h hybrid and compare it to a Navigator and GMC Yukon for mileage (not exactly an even competition in my opinion???) Miracles, the Lexus won with low to mid 20's mpg versus teens for the others and the wonders of hybrid technology are proven

Then MB heard about it and had the journalist repeat the test using a stand MB ML320 diesel (currently only available in Europe). Hybrid 23 mpg, ML 27 mpg and the ML is the bigger, heavier vehicle. The driving supposedly was a mix of city/highway, so none of the vehicles should have had a big advantage. And yet, the hybrid RX is sold out for a year or more and is the most successful Lexus launch in history, though I can get about the same mileage in my BMW X5 VW diesels provide about the same real world mileage as the Prius, but dielels have a bad perception, hybrids good, so hybrids sell, VW's don't.

In otherwords, almost everyone who buys a Porsche, or Ferrari, or Hummer, is buying it for what it theoretically can do, not to actually go and do it . Considering this, I think Porsche has done an excellent job building cars that actually CAN perform at least limited race duty at a very affordable price (all's relative of course).

Bob, I think most of the Audi aluminum body is marketing hype as the car is the heaviest in class as I recall, so saving weight was not a primary consideration and there are lots of cheaper and better ways they could have saved weight I would guess as the insurance and repair problems they are facing have really hurt sales. Beautiful car though, if I needed a BIG sedan, that would be my choice....

On a similar line, it would be interesting to see how many people order their Porsches with heavy options like big stereos, full power seats, seat heaters, S/R, floor mats, and then carry a bunch of junk around in the car as well, do you think these people want the hassles of an aluminum hood to save about 20#'s? Sad state of the world, but I still think Porsche offers the best product on the market, so I am happy with what I got.

[MikeD]

"Imagine what Audi could do if they really wanted to build a sports car. I wonder what Porsche will do to differentiate itself in the future when just being a "Porsche" may not be enough."

They DID - The TT! and wasn't that "Special." LOL

The TT was a direct competitor to Porsches' lowest ranked model that has been touted as the better car in all the car magazines ever since.

But Porsche didn't rest on their laurels! The 1997 Boxster WAS pretty nice, but look what the 2005 Boxster S (and now Cayman S!) has grown into!

More powerful, better handling, quieter, more standard features for similiar 1997 Boxster money, only roadster on the market with head protection airbags, finally an excellent stereo, and cupholders too ;^)

If you guys knew the PCNA/PAG employees that I do, you'd know they are just as enthusiastic/passionate as you guys! About the cars!

They're always trying to find out what they can improve or enhance with newly developed technology. They never feel the project is "done."

Chris, I respect your enthusiasm. However, maybe if PCNA would honor the warranties of the cars they distribute I could get excited about all this "new technology" you speak of. As much as I like the new Boxster S and now the Cayman S I doubt I will ever buy a new Porsche again. Or at least if I do it will be under the understanding that the warranty is useless to me.

Bob, what you say makes a lot of sense to me. When I get around to buying a "street" car it will likely be an M5 or RS6. More room and enough performance to have some fun on the street. Makes more sense to me than a 911 at this juncture. If Porsche really does come out with a 4 door sedan it would be cool, I'm sure. But most likely priced so as to make the M5 or RS6 a better choice.

[ajackson]

Warranty handling is huge in my book, but I don't know how many people feel the way I do. I will always pay up when I know the company will replace/repair their damaged products with little effort on my part. I consistantly stay with brands and stores when I've had good experience dealing with problems.

[kary]

"Imagine what Audi could do if they really wanted to build a sports car. I wonder what Porsche will do to differentiate itself in the future when just being a "Porsche" may not be enough."

They DID - The TT! and wasn't that "Special." LOL

The TT was a direct competitor to Porsches' lowest ranked model that has been touted as the better car in all the car magazines ever since.

But Porsche didn't rest on their laurels! The 1997 Boxster WAS pretty nice, but look what the 2005 Boxster S (and now Cayman S!) has grown into!

More powerful, better handling, quieter, more standard features for similiar 1997 Boxster money, only roadster on the market with head protection airbags, finally an excellent stereo, and cupholders too ;^)

If you guys knew the PCNA/PAG employees that I do, you'd know they are just as enthusiastic/passionate as you guys! About the cars!

They're always trying to find out what they can improve or enhance with newly developed technology. They never feel the project is "done."

Chris, I respect your enthusiasm. However, maybe if PCNA would honor the warranties of the cars they distribute I could get excited about all this "new technology" you speak of. As much as I like the new Boxster S and now the Cayman S I doubt I will ever buy a new Porsche again. Or at least if I do it will be under the understanding that the warranty is useless to me.

Bob, what you say makes a lot of sense to me. When I get around to buying a "street" car it will likely be an M5 or RS6. More room and enough performance to have some fun on the street. Makes more sense to me than a 911 at this juncture. If Porsche really does come out with a 4 door sedan it would be cool, I'm sure. But most likely priced so as to make the M5 or RS6 a better choice.

Given the direction of these posts, here is a question for all, or maybe just Chris Huck:

What would PCNA do if I bought a new GT3 and tracked the car like Mike D has done with his Boxster S in terms of backing up the product warranty?

a. Would they fix warranty parts that broke?
b. Would they tell me I race the car and that is not covered?
c. Would they tell me there is no warranty on the car if I race when I bought it?
d. Would they tell me there is no warranty on the car if I race when the first or second claim occurs (after the fact)>
e. None of the above. Then what is it?

The reason I ask this question is two fold. 1) Given the history of Porsche cars, people like Mike assumed they would have support for their car if it broke on the track or not, to a point obviously. Mike's woes have been nothing really around racing as much as the design of the car (steering rack leak for example). 2) The other part of this is if I bought a GT3, which is of the caliber in parts quality of pre 996/Boxster cars, would they warranty breakages from track use (time trail/DE/racing) more so than the street cars of today that obvuously are not built for the track any longer? Or would they just say the same thing they are saying for the street cars, which is back to my orignal question above.

[ajackson]

Pretty much all manufacturers seem to have the same answer to your questions: "Maybe"

[Chris Huck]

This is my personal response and does NOT represent PCNA or PAG-

But first - What warranty does Porsche Motorsports offer? NONE! They make/sell "track" cars. I sell "street" cars.

If a customer buys a car from me I tell them the factory warranty is 4 years / 50,000 miles from the original sales date and covers all defects in parts and workmanship. Full details are in the Warranty booklet in the Owners' Manual portfolio.

PCNA provides a warranty to show they stand behind their products based on how they are expecting them to be used and to "take ownership" of and remedy any mistakes in production.

There are many things that could put more strain on a component than was originally intended.

The 1997 Boxster was not designed to run with ultra-low profile 18" wheels. The impact from bumps could damage the chassis so would void that portion of the warranty and PCNA would not cover the repair. But there's no impact on the engine or electronics so they would still be covered. Subsequent chasis were reinforced and now we even have 19" wheels. (see - they ARE paying attention to what customers want!)

Sticky "slicks" could cause excessive wear to the steering system, a racing seat might not work properly with factory seat belts, a racing suspension could lead to cracks in the chassis, drilled holes for a harness could cause cosmetic damage not covered by a "warranty." Missed shifts / overrevs could damage the engine, hitting the Q's swail too hard could cause damage to oil pan, suspension or chassis. Life expectancy of clutch, tires, brake pads and rotors are shorter. "Slammed" shifts can damage the shifter housing.... But I don't think there are ANY surprises here!

a - yes unless there was obvious excessive use or acted upon by an outside influence.
b - no!
c - no!
d - Warranty is not voided. Components that are damaged by outside forces are not covered. Defects in parts and workmanship are covered.

Keep in mind the GT3 is still a "street" car. One example would be the plastic shifter housing v/s a GT3RS metal housing. But the plastic housing doesn't chatter or vibrate so which one is better? Which costs more to design and engineer? GT3 has a warranty, RS doesn't! GT3 gets an oild change every 15,000 miles, RS WAAY more often. Our engine should last 150,000 miles + before rebuild, RS 10 hours!!! Who should pay more? I'll let this group decide ;^)

And Mike - FWIW - We just double checked in the PCNA computer system and found your warranty is NOT cancelled. They did already cover it once, they just won't cover an ADDITIONAL steering rack if needed. Yours wasn't faulty, it was worn out LOL Rest of the car no issues ;^)

[kary]

This is my personal response and does NOT represent PCNA or PAG-

But first - What warranty does Porsche Motorsports offer? NONE! They make/sell "track" cars. I sell "street" cars.

If a customer buys a car from me I tell them the factory warranty is 4 years / 50,000 miles from the original sales date and covers all defects in parts and workmanship. Full details are in the Warranty booklet in the Owners' Manual portfolio.

PCNA provides a warranty to show they stand behind their products based on how they are expecting them to be used and to "take ownership" of and remedy any mistakes in production.

There are many things that could put more strain on a component than was originally intended.

The 1997 Boxster was not designed to run with ultra-low profile 18" wheels. The impact from bumps could damage the chassis so would void that portion of the warranty and PCNA would not cover the repair. But there's no impact on the engine or electronics so they would still be covered. Subsequent chasis were reinforced and now we even have 19" wheels. (see - they ARE paying attention to what customers want!)

Sticky "slicks" could cause excessive wear to the steering system, a racing seat might not work properly with factory seat belts, a racing suspension could lead to cracks in the chassis, drilled holes for a harness could cause cosmetic damage not covered by a "warranty." Missed shifts / overrevs could damage the engine, hitting the Q's swail too hard could cause damage to oil pan, suspension or chassis. Life expectancy of clutch, tires, brake pads and rotors are shorter. "Slammed" shifts can damage the shifter housing.... But I don't think there are ANY surprises here!

a - yes unless there was obvious excessive use or acted upon by an outside influence.
b - no!
c - no!
d - Warranty is not voided. Components that are damaged by outside forces are not covered. Defects in parts and workmanship are covered.

Keep in mind the GT3 is still a "street" car. One example would be the plastic shifter housing v/s a GT3RS metal housing. But the plastic housing doesn't chatter or vibrate so which one is better? Which costs more to design and engineer? GT3 has a warranty, RS doesn't! GT3 gets an oild change every 15,000 miles, RS WAAY more often. Our engine should last 150,000 miles + before rebuild, RS 10 hours!!! Who should pay more? I'll let this group decide ;^)

And Mike - FWIW - We just double checked in the PCNA computer system and found your warranty is NOT cancelled. They did already cover it once, they just won't cover an ADDITIONAL steering rack if needed. Yours wasn't faulty, it was worn out LOL Rest of the car no issues ;^)

Thanks Chris for taking on that question! I really need some help here understanding this thread (at least the majority of this threads) viewpoint on a few topics. So please do not take offense, but rather explain why what I am saying is not true so I can understand in like terms.

It seems that you are saying you would cover a street car on a track as long as it is not considered "excessive use" or "acted upon by outside forces". So which one of those was Jad's battery replacement not being covered and why was/is Mike still having issues with the steering rack after it had been replaced, obviously the new one is not worn out?

Seems rather arbitrary really, either it is covered or it is not. Insurance companies are not vague about this sort of thing. They say things like "you are not covered on non-public roads" or "you cannot participate in a speed contests that involve timing", etc... There is no confusion and everyone knows up front what the rules are.

I also understand that the GT3RS does not have a warranty, but then I am not worried about the quality of that machine as I know they are reliable from watching the many endurance races they win over and over again. My car (1997 993) has been exposed to "excessive use" and "acted upon by outside forces" for many years, not an issue since it keeps right on going without issue. Exceeded it's two year warranty long ago as the extended 6 year warranty I also had on it. Which is the point of much of this discussion, the quality of the parts to handle more than street driving, which is what Porsche was (is?) all about, isn't it?

Well, I understand the need to control costs and even agree wholeheartedly! But when folks on this thread tried to explain away the quality is different today than in years past the examples came up as," the cars have not really gone up much in price". Well that simply is not true if you provide the same level of quality parts in the cars. Today I need to purchase a GT3 street car to have the same quality parts of pre-996 cars. The GT3 is somewhere in the area of $110K (new). My car, in 1997 out the door was $70K (new). How is it that comparing apples to apples anyone can say the price for these cars has not gone up, at least I think it went up $40K by my estimation if compare equivalent quality cars, right?